Non- numbers matching transmission?

[Stephen W.]

Looking at a '67 427-435 'Vert. Engine matches VIN, but Trans is non-matching. Judges don't check the Trans #s (correct?), but anyone buying the car knows. How much less is a car with a non-matching transmission worth? This car is at R K Motors in Charlotte, N.C. (Goodwood Green/ saddle interior)-- anyone know this car? It is said to have received a (raw score) of 93. +, but that was 16 years ago.





Thanks

[Michael J.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

Don't know the car, but I have dealt with RK before. If you are interested I would suggest a thorough inspection by an NCRS expert, there is one nearby, PM me if you want the name. I will share my opinion that I would never buy a '67 L71 without excellent documentation, like a tank sticker verified by NCRS. As for the tranny, it says it is a Richmond Super T10, that would be enough for me to worry about the whole car, not just the lack of a "numbers matching" tranny, which indeed the judges will never inspect.

[John D.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

Chassis judges who are not quite so svelte often have difficulty verifying anything other than transmission color during judging.

[Robert G.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

The body number on the trim tag is not what I would expect. That number would work for a coupe. It could be a factory error.

[Michael J.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

467 is for a convertible, so it should be OK. S5690 for body number is not distinctive for coupe vs. convertible, is it?

[Page C.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

Robert is correct on the body number. You would expect to see a St. Louis J01 tag for a convert body to be in the S7700+ range. This tag is in the St. Louis coupe range of S5700. Agree with Robert that it could be a factory error

[Michael J.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

If that is true, and there is a way to check and see if the trim tag is bogus by using the body number distinguishing a coupe vs. a convertible, I would expect to see that in the newly released 1967 5th edition TIM&JG on pages 11-12. I see nothing about this numbering sequence there, so why?

[Page C.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

Why would you publish something that would make it easier for the counterfeiters of trim tags? Team leaders are well aware of this body numbering sequence and it applies to all midyears.

[Michael J.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

OK, then somehow the team leaders or the "insiders clique" of NCRS have some special info on body numbers to detect bogus trim tags coupe vs. convertible. Are they going to tell a participant who has their car judged they have "special secret info" no one can know because of counterfeiters, but sorry so you lose and your car should have been a coupe and you are disqualified? That sounds a little too conspiratorial for the NCRS organization I know. Team leaders, tell me if this is what happens, please? I would like to know if there is secret info being hidden from members and purposely emitted from the judging manuals while our cars are judged in what most believe to be an open, transparent system.

[Page C.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

Michael
This is no "NCRS insider thing". If you look on any of the various website or auction sites that offer Corvettes for sale they provide lots of photos of vin, trim and engine information. Once you have spend ten, fifteen, twenty years accumalating lots on data you can amost pin point what the vin numbers should be form the body numbers. You can also spot lots of bogus cars for sale. A good place to start is the Noland Adams Vol 2 page 40.

[Michael J.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

I'm not saying you are wrong, that you can definitively tell that a car was a coupe or a convertible by the body number alone, although I would doubt it, as I think NCRS judging guides would surely reflect that transparently, but perhaps I am naive. What I am saying is, that if this information is so well documented that it is apparent and reliable and indisputable, why isn't it in the TIM&JG? Why are the team leads withholding info from the members with which they could better evaluate their own cars? As I said, that is not the NCRS I know. I would like to know, for instance, if Nick is withholding this kind of vital info from the '67 owners and not allowing it to be published in the recent '67 update. If so, what other info is being withheld from members so that they are powerless in evaluating their cars for judging?

[Larry M.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

The 1967 Corvette bodies were made in two places: St Louis and AO Smith in Michigan. Each body plant had its own sequence of body numbers. So there could be two primary/main body build numbers......those starting with an S and those starting with an A. In addition, each location numbered coupe and convertible bodies separately. Therefore there was a sequence of S-coupe body numbers, S-convertible body numbers, A-coupe body numbers, and A-convertible body numbers.

These numbers loosely correlate to the final VIN number. If you collect data/info long enough as Page says, you will see the trends. I have similar info in my own files. Therefore if you look at a St Louis body coupe with a certain VIN number, you would expect to see the body number in a certain narrow range. If outside this range, then the VIN or TRIM Tag is suspect or a stamping error occurred. Either one raises a flag and requires additional diligence.

Because of train delivery of the AOS bodies, and St Louis factory scheduling, two coupes built the same day in AOS could have final VIN numbers a few weeks apart when they finally leave the Corvette plant for delivery. So it is not straightforward and easy to put together tables of this info. But this info does exist for those who follow judging and Corvette build. A good database of this info is in Noland's Book on C2 Restoration. If you get the book you will have a good start on this information. Looking at cars on-line and at judging meets will provide additional data.

FWIW

Larry

[Michael J.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

Thanks Larry, good information. Since I had not heard of this critical data before, let me ask a couple more questions. #1, is this "trend" solid enough that it should be detailed in the 5th edition of the '67 TIM&JG (that is the source to which we are always referred, since that is what we all use for these cars, not Noland's book) as definitive, and #2, do the judges use this "trend" in any way to judge the cars? Thanks.

[Larry M.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

Thanks Larry, good information. Since I had not heard of this critical data before, let me ask a couple more questions. #1, is this "trend" solid enough that it should be detailed in the 5th edition of the '67 TIM&JG (that is the source to which we are always referred, since that is what we all use for these cars, not Noland's book) as definitive, and #2, do the judges use this "trend" in any way to judge the cars? Thanks.

The info is not exact enough and is to voluminous to put into a judging guide. You have similar issues with 1964-1965-1966 since they also had both S and A bodies. It might work better and be less cumbersome for those years when St Louis built everything.

The info is not used in judging per se, but is used by the Team Leader when verifying VIN and Trim Tags for originality. I know I do this when working in this position. However, the Team Leader is also looking at many other things on these tags as well to be certain that they belong to the car and are not "re-made" or altered.

My opinion.

Larry

[Michael J.]

Re: Non- numbers matching transmission?

Thanks for your insights and opinions here Larry, I appreciate it. Even after 5 years and judging schools, retreats, etc., I am always curious about what the judges use for various, somewhat subjective items. I had the Trim Tag book, and the things are well laid out there, but again no mention of the body number issue. Since a trim tag problem receives an NCRS "death sentence", I am glad to hear many lines of evidence are used beyond this "trend" in body numbers. Cheers and Merry Christmas and Feliz Navidad!