top flight with different engine

[Tracy C.]

Re: top flight with different engine

[QUOTE=John Scopelite (50653);688834]

The answer to John's question as well as any counterfeit concerns are clearly spelled out in the 8th revision of the Judging Reference Manual. Every owner considering entering their car in a judging meet needs to own and understand the content of this resource.

tracy, i do not plan on having another car judged in the near future, so i did not plan on buying a revision of the judging manual. without me buying a manual is there a problem with using an identical engine and could the car achieve a duntov award? (past top flight awards were by other owners and i understand all awards needed to get to duntov need to be awarded to current owner)

If we boil the question down to a basic generic premise, Yes... a car with a replacement engine block can score high enough to earn credit towards a Duntov award. There are many caveats in that scenario. As Mike stated, it is impossible for anyone here to determine if your car can make that score. Since you do not plan to have it judged it is really a mute point isn't it?

tc

[Gene M.]

Re: top flight with different engine

There are some C1's that have gotten 3 Top Flights with 3 different body colors!

This must have happened prior to the interweb judging data base system. Because the data system would throw up a red flag to the color being different from previous data inputs. The two subsequent color changes should be full deducts if the first judging was accepted. If not somebody is not doing there job. Only one color selection can prevail on any single car.

If this is not the case than what would stop people from continuously adding or deleting options and paint changes. A car can't be an automatic with correct stampings and come back another time as a 4 speed with correct stampings. Any initial input nor changes of casting dates are not recorded in the data base. Most options are not in the data base neither. Honor system I guess.

[John S.]

Re: top flight with different engine

What if the pad was judged to not be TFP last time around?

Why would the engine pad be treated differently than any other feature of the car?

all engine pads should be recorded. ncrs looks at stamping and broach marks, but in eallier corvettes the broach marks are unlikely to be altered. a better understanding beween the numbering sequence on the pad and the engine date code might help in determining if a engine was originally on a corvette. it appears that if a passenger car and corvette block were cast on the same day, that the corvette block will have a much later sequence number on the engine pad. example is 1955 corvette #29. casting numberJ284. most flint engines cast that date approximately have 0034--- on the pad. #29 has 0092--- on the pad which would be more in line with blocks being cast in early december and assembled shortly after.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: top flight with different engine

This must have happened prior to the interweb judging data base system. Because the data system would throw up a red flag to the color being different from previous data inputs. The two subsequent color changes should be full deducts if the first judging was accepted. If not somebody is not doing there job. Only one color selection can prevail on any single car.If this is not the case than what would stop people from continuously adding or deleting options and paint changes. A car can't be an automatic with correct stampings and come back another time as a 4 speed with correct stampings. Any initial input nor changes of casting dates are not recorded in the data base. Most options are not in the data base neither. Honor system I guess.

How would The judge know that the first color the car was judged with is the true factory paint color? Is it the first guy to get it judged gets to pick a color & options?

[Michael W.]

Re: top flight with different engine

all engine pads should be recorded.

That's debatable, and heads down the path of the NCRS becoming the Corvette police mixed with the slippery slope of authenticating engines and cars.

No thanks.

[Terry M.]

Re: top flight with different engine

That's debatable, and heads down the path of the NCRS becoming the Corvette police mixed with the slippery slope of authenticating engines and cars.

No thanks.

I will tell you a story now that both parties have passed. (Maybe there IS some advantage to living so long.):

When I was 1970-72 NTL (National Team Leader) I trained my judges to write numbers and dates of engines, carburetors, distributors & starters on the score sheets. When I reviewed those sheets I recorded those numbers and they eventually found their way into my home computer.

One of my friends bought a Duntov Award Corvette from another friend. The second owner then proceeded to seek the Duntov, thinking it would be a shoe-in. I won't tell you how many components of that car were not those that were on it when it achieved the Duntov the first time, but they were the more hard to find parts.

I chose to not spill the beans to either party because I knew that none of us would remain friends if I did that, but I learned a great deal about human nature as a result of that experience. And this is the first time I am relating it.

My father was a newspaper photographer and reporter. In Chicago there used to be a organization called The City News Bureau that collected local news and disseminated it to the four Chicago newspapers and the two national news organizations. This was a training ground for some of the greatest newspaper reporters who ever lived. They used to teach their reporters: "If your mother tells you the sun is shining, verify it!" It would be wise to apply that advice to purchasing Corvettes.

[Michael W.]

Re: top flight with different engine

Interesting story Terry and some information best digested while reading between the lines.

That scenario brings up another point- the use of prior knowledge of a given car while judging. If the same judges were have seen the car again for it's repeat Duntov attempt and still had their notes with numbers etc, they are specifically prevented from using them.

Perhaps this point addresses the Op's concern somewhat.

[Michael G.]

Re: top flight with different engine

My father was a newspaper photographer and reporter. In Chicago there used to be a organization called The City News Bureau that collected local news and disseminated it to the four Chicago newspapers and the two national news organizations. This was a training ground for some of the greatest newspaper reporters who ever lived. They used to teach their reporters: "If your mother tells you the sun is shining, verify it!" It would be wise to apply that advice to purchasing Corvettes.

Good advice, Terry. I'd always heard it this way: "trust everybody - but, cut the cards".

[David B.]

Re: top flight with different engine

Folks, what if I buy a previous Duntov car and then drive it a little too hard and blow up the motor (beyond repair). Does NCRS tell me to throw away the car? No. We allow restoration motors. We do not allow performance enhancements (i.e. HP changes or handling upgrades...these will lead you to Counterfeit Land...you don't want to go there). Regardless of previous judging's, if you replace the motor with a correct (for your car) HP motor, we will judge the car. Our system of 88 points in total for the pad acknowledges that a motor is a consumable commodity...original pad surface is worth 38 points, machine code is worth 25 points and VIN derivative is worth 25 points (for cars with no VIN derivative...i.e. most C-1's...the pad stampings are worth 50 points...no 25/25 split). I hope this clarifies things. Dave

[Terry M.]

Re: top flight with different engine

Interesting story Terry and some information best digested while reading between the lines.

That scenario brings up another point- the use of prior knowledge of a given car while judging. If the same judges were have seen the car again for it's repeat Duntov attempt and still had their notes with numbers etc, they are specifically prevented from using them.

Perhaps this point addresses the Op's concern somewhat.

And that is only one of the reasons that data remains in my desktop computer even though now days it could go in my phone. If I don't have it on the judging field there is none of those kinds of issues.

[Michael J.]

Re: top flight with different engine

This must have happened prior to the interweb judging data base system. Because the data system would throw up a red flag to the color being different from previous data inputs. The two subsequent color changes should be full deducts if the first judging was accepted. If not somebody is not doing there job. Only one color selection can prevail on any single car.

If this is not the case than what would stop people from continuously adding or deleting options and paint changes. A car can't be an automatic with correct stampings and come back another time as a 4 speed with correct stampings. Any initial input nor changes of casting dates are not recorded in the data base. Most options are not in the data base neither. Honor system I guess.

Yes, I was surprised when I entered my newly acquired car for its' first regional under my ownership. It hasn't been judged since 1993, but the computer sure knew lots about it!

[John S.]

Re: top flight with different engine

Folks, what if I buy a previous Duntov car and then drive it a little too hard and blow up the motor (beyond repair). Does NCRS tell me to throw away the car? No. We allow restoration motors. We do not allow performance enhancements (i.e. HP changes or handling upgrades...these will lead you to Counterfeit Land...you don't want to go there). Regardless of previous judging's, if you replace the motor with a correct (for your car) HP motor, we will judge the car. Our system of 88 points in total for the pad acknowledges that a motor is a consumable commodity...original pad surface is worth 38 points, machine code is worth 25 points and VIN derivative is worth 25 points (for cars with no VIN derivative...i.e. most C-1's...the pad stampings are worth 50 points...no 25/25 split). I hope this clarifies things. Dave

if performance enhancements means that i cannot comeback with a car that had was judged with a automatic and is now presented as a three-speed, then i would hope your judges could prove the three-speed was not original. same if i decided to go away from a 3 speed and present the car as a automatic. under your judging rules awards given to past owners do not tranfer to new owners when trying to achieve higher awards. if i am presenting a car i would hope that i would not be denied judging on past configurations that cannot be confirmed to be original to the car.

[Gene M.]

Re: top flight with different engine

Interesting story Terry and some information best digested while reading between the lines.

That scenario brings up another point- the use of prior knowledge of a given car while judging. If the same judges were have seen the car again for it's repeat Duntov attempt and still had their notes with numbers etc, they are specifically prevented from using them.

Perhaps this point addresses the Op's concern somewhat.

That's not quite true. I see lots of judges with notes written in their judging manuals. And plenty of engine pads have been compared to photos. So not just judges knowledge, experience, recollection, and manual is the source of information while evaluation of said Corvette. But so long as all is accurate the evaluation will be better for both owner and judge.

[Michael W.]

Re: top flight with different engine

That's not quite true. I see lots of judges with notes written in their judging manuals. And plenty of engine pads have been compared to photos. So not just judges knowledge, experience, recollection, and manual is the source of information while evaluation of said Corvette. But so long as all is accurate the evaluation will be better for both owner and judge.

Gene- you've misunderstood what I said. Can't use prior knowledge of a given car. If you judge the same car twice, you start with a fresh sheet.

[Tracy C.]

Re: top flight with different engine

Gene- you've misunderstood what I said. Can't use prior knowledge of a given car. If you judge the same car twice, you start with a fresh sheet.

If the car in question has magically gained 100 cubic inches, I think prior knowledge would come into play. Otherwise a judge may be walking a fine line.

tc