58 side widow frames and glass fit

[Thomas H.]

I just received side windows and frames from Auto City Classics for the 58 I'm working on. They look real nice, but the glass seems to be loosely fit inside the stainless trim. I don't recall the original side glass on my 60 loose like this. I can easily move the glass side to side inside the stainless frame up to about 1/8" in places.

Thoughts? Should I remove the glass and put some sealer in there to hold them a bit more secure?

They just came today and I'm going to call Auto City on Monday to inquire, but figure I'd get the ball rolling here first.

Tom

[Richard M.]

Re: 58 side widow frames and glass fit

Tom, It certainly sounds like they either didn't put the sealing strips in when assembled, or if they did they used the wrong thickness. Or did you buy just the glass and frames separately and assembling them yourself. If so yes there must be strips installed between the glass and frame.

This is what you need......ZDR-509


I just installed a repro pair of wide windows in a '60. No problems with loose glass. They were complete assemblies with sealing strips. However, a FYI, keep in mind they did a silly thing when they made the repro frames. The original #6-32 machine screw threads in the original lower sash frames, to attach the frames to the lower regulator tracks, have miraculously become #8-32 screw threads! If you buy the hardware attach kit, it comes with #6's. These screws are beveled flat head Phillips. Make sure the #8's you use don't protrude in the tracks and cause hangups.

I also found that the width of the reproduction SS frames are a bit wider than originals, which means you may need to "adjust" your window fuzzies at the lower front curved corners to get smooth action.

Rich

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[Thomas H.]

Re: 58 side widow frames and glass fit

Rich,

There appears to be some form of gasket used, but it is no where near thick enough to hold the window securely in the frame. I bought them as assembled and was surprised to see this amount of play. I'm going to call Monday and see what they have to say.

I suppose this shipment was cursed from the get-go as I also ordered a dated windshield along with the door glass and it arrived in a smashed box. Another windshield is on the way.

Nothing is ever easy.............

[Dan D.]

Re: 58 side widow frames and glass fit

Hi Rich,

Very interested in your experience with C1 window glass. I have been fighting door glass fitment on my 57. You make it sound so simple, not mine. First, let me say that the door glass thickness is different, depending on the year. My 57, with AS2LT code original glass, the thickness is .271 (measured). My left side, which appears to be a 61, glass code AS2IL, is .246. Not sure just what year this change was made, but my car was hit hard in the left year in its previous life and the whole left side from the rear to the door was replaced, hence the apparent 61 door and glass. That makes a difference in installing them in the frame. I have original frames, and the frames are all the same thickness, regardless of year. I could not get the glass in the frame using the aftermarket tape, which is .058 thk. My son-in-law gave me some .037 thk. rubber and I used that. That even went in hard. I used hot soapy water and Erwin squeeze clamps.

You say the repro frames are thicker, which probably allows the glass to go into the frame easier. Buuuut, this will affect the clearance with the fuzzzies at the lower radius of the front door post. With my original frames (.465 thk.) and new fuzzies, they were so tight in this area they would stall the motor (mine is power window). I got so frustrated with this I put a post up on the forum few months ago. Dr. Mike said he beats the fuzzies with a hammer to reduce the thickness and another member said he squeezed them in a vice. I liked the vice method better so I did that and I have them working but they are still tight. I found the beads were bent wrong at the front post radius too, but was able to re-bend enough with my thumbs to make them fit. So I am just curious to how you made them work, and it sounds like it was not too hard.

Thanks Rich,
-Dan-


So if the replacement frames are even wider, how did you get them to work? You said 'adjust' them at the post, so how do you adjust them?

I have not had a computer for over a week and this thread seems to have run its course, so I thought it was safe to 'jump' it now.

[Richard M.]

Re: 58 side widow frames and glass fit

Dan, I feel your pain, not as much it seems.

It sounds like you're on the right track to get the glass in. I never knew the earlier C1's had different glass thicknesses.

Okay, so the fuzzies.....Yes exactly right, if the repro frames are ANY thicker, it makes them even more difficult to roll through the repro fuzzies. They're just too thick, frustrating. This is the most dreaded job of the doors IMO.

This is what I do. The fuzzy material is embedded to the metal with a thick rubbery but tar-like product. At the corners, I peel back the fuzzy cloth and expose the rubber. I peel the rubber from the metal backing strip apx one inch in either direction(up & down) of the corner. Then I use 3M black W/Strip adhesive to glue the fuzzy cloth back on to the metal. This relieves quite a bit of width on the completed pair of fuzzies. Most if not all of the "bind" is in the corners.

Now when they're stapled and installed to the outer trim and inner reveal, I test roll the window. I've found the large diameter bead that fits over the vertical channel small beads, are still too big and protrude into the vertical channel too far. I use a soft pine block and carefully hammer the large beads away from center. You have to be careful you don't deform the beads. Retest the window roll-up/down until satisfied.

This combination of "Slight Modifications to Reproduction Corvette Replacement Materials".....has worked for me for the last few C1's I've done.

Rich

[Richard M.]

Re: 58 side widow frames and glass fit

I found a few photos I forgot I had of the last car I did, a '60.

You can see the slight increased width of the area between the large beads of the fuzzy where it loops over the verticals. The reproduction fuzzies "large bead" is a bit too large a diameter IMO. This fact, and the thick rubber, and the thick fuzzy material all add up to a tighter area for the glass frame to ride through. And if the large beads edges are too far inward, they can even scratch the vertical SS window frame. Carefully "expanding" the width with a soft wooden block and a gentle hammer opens the area.

When attaching the fuzzies to the trims, be careful to ensure the entire bead is just above the mating horizontal and curved surface of the trims. You don't want the bead down too far in the trims so as to reduce your width even more, especially in the corners of the post.

Also, a hidden artifact of rechroming the door posts is that any increased thickness on the inside and radiused corners of the horizontal and curved areas will again reduce overall width of the finished assembly. Platers have a tendency of laying the copper on very thick to get a jewelry-like finished product. What they don't know is what effect it has on the finish work to keep the opening width correct to get the windows to roll properly. Too much copper where the trims mate to the door post is also a problem. I typically have to use a Dremel grinder to remove chrome & thick copper so the trims will even fit over the posts. Not fun.

One other observation with the last several cars I've done with the reproduction fuzzies......The window will not roll completely down past the fuzzies as seen in the 2nd photo below. It protrudes up slightly above the beads. Because the overall width is reduced due to the above mentioned issues, the edge of the vertical frame hangs up on the thick fuzzy along it's entire length.

Until a manufacturer comes forward and makes a better product, we'll have to put up with this difficult task of making parts fit and function properly.

Rich
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[Thomas H.]

Re: 58 side widow frames and glass fit

Rich,

Thanks for posting this info. I'm supposed to be receiving replacement frames with assembled glass AND correct gasket material in a few days. Your info will come in handy during door assembly. For some reason I keep thinking that everything will fit together easily, but then I remind myself I'm using mostly repop parts and I'll need to take a double dose of patience meds before starting............

It's all fun though.

Tom

[Dan D.]

Re: 58 side widow frames and glass fit

Thanks for responding Rich,

We are both on the same page here, that is for sure.

1. For one, you are spot on when you say to install the outer horizontal mounting strip and reveal before installing the glass. Found that out the hard way - you cannot in any way get the screws in with the glass installed.
2. Second, insuring the fuzzy beads are above the horizontal surface of the reveal is another lesson I learned the hard way. I had to re-staple the fuzzies, but this buys additional clearance, and you need every bit you can get.
3. You can see in your #4 photo just how much the channel width necks down at the front corner.
4. You say your fuzzy beads are larger than they need to be - mine were smaller, I had to open them up in order to fit over the verticals.
5. Your solution to peel back the fuzzy material and remove the rubber backing sounds like a very good idea. I will try this as I still don't have mine together. I had to walk away from it before.
6. The fact that the window will not retract all the way as it hangs up on the fuzzies is another problem I also have. You can see in your photo #2 how the frame is all but touching the beads. Seems to me it is very close to scratching the frame.
7. If one is going to have the posts re-chromed, it may be possible for a machine shop to remove some of metal in this corner area to allow more clearance for the fuzzies.
8. Rich - it would be interesting to know just how thick the repro frames are. Like I said mine are .465.

Tom, sorry if I hijacked your thread, but I think you will find this information useful when you get to putting your doors together.

I have a couple of other 'comments' (problems) on these doors, but I think I will start a new thread, as this one is getting full up, and we need to have Tom more on board - it is his post.

Look for more on this shortly,
-Dan-

[Cecil L.]

Re: 58 side widow frames and glass fit

I seem to recall an old procedure for setting glass in the channel where after installation, to tighted up the fit, a little kerosene or diesel fuel applied around the setting tape edges would tighten it up.

[Thomas H.]

Re: 58 side widow frames and glass fit

Tom, sorry if I hijacked your thread, but I think you will find this information useful when you get to putting your doors together.

I have a couple of other 'comments' (problems) on these doors, but I think I will start a new thread, as this one is getting full up, and we need to have Tom more on board - it is his post.

Look for more on this shortly,
-Dan-

Dan,

I'm 100% on board with this discussion and soaking it all up. The more I learn from others that have done this or are doing this, hopefully the less swearing there will be when I start.

I'm putting the engine back together while I wait for the new windshield and side windows to come (again). Once they get here the fun begins. Engine assy is easy compared to what I've been reading...........

Tom

[Dan D.]

Re: 58 side widow frames and glass fit

Ya Tom, I thought you would be, but it is your thread, so I had to make sure.

I intend to post a new thread tomorrow that will expand on what has been said so far, and add a couple of new ones. Looks like Rich is the resident expert on C1 doors, so I will be looking for his continued expertise.

Even with all this, plan on having plenty of adult beverages on hand when you begin - and you might want to ship your spouse off-site for a couple of days until you win the battle.

Cecil, I have not heard of this, but if it is (was) true then the Diesel must swell up the setting tape. Whether it would revert back to its original state after it dries out, I don't know. Or if it would work on modern day materials.

-Dan-