You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule) - NCRS Discussion Boards

You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule)

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  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • December 31, 1992
    • 15597

    You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule)

    A buddy from my days at Grand Forks AFB in the early seventies stopped by and we got to taking about old Lionel trains. Glen is a model train buff, member of a couple of clubs and asked if he could see my fifties vintage Lionels that I packed away in my dad's old hard leather suitcase 20 years ago when I was clearing out the house in Seattle where I grew up after my mom passed away.

    Low and behold, in addition to all the Lionel rolling stock there was the original 201 15 VAC (No, it's not for sale.) from my 340 HP SWC. I thought it was long gone.

    It's in excellent condition other than a gouge where it impinged against the inlet manifold from having the gear on backwards. The first time I removed and disassembled it in an attempt to find out why the ignition often broke up at high revs, I couldn't get the initial timing correct before the VAC hit the inlet manifold. I recall talking to some "experts" about the problem, and they said to move the wires, etc. Those guys were clueless, and, of course, they're still out there offering the same lame advice.

    After removing it another couple of times to figure out the problem I noticed the dimple on the 13-tooth gear. Ah-ha I thought. If I rotate the gear 180 degrees that might solve the problem. There's nothing about properly indexing the dimple in any service manuals that I know of, so you just had to figure it out yourself, which I did as an 18-year old college freshman in mechanical engineering. Of course, once I rotated the gear, which put the dimple in line with the rotor tip and reindexed the wires back to their original positions IAW the '63 shop manual, all was well.

    The 201 15 was only installed about another year as I figured out a year later, circa 1966, that this 15" VAC was not suited to the 12" manifold vacuum of the Duntov cam and was the likely cause of the idle instability and stalling that plagued the engine since new. It didn't meet the "Two-Inch Rule" though I had not formulated that little gem of truth at that time.

    I bought an 8" 236 16 VAC plus the '64-'65 centrifugal weights and springs to update the distributor to '64-'65 SHP/FI specs. In addition to a stable 850-900 idle, the quicker centrifugal produced a noticeable SOTP improvement in low end torque, which really helped since the CR T-10 is coupled to a 3.08 axle.

    Apparently I left the old VAC somewhere in the basement, found it when I was packing up the Lionel trains, and tucked it into the old suitcase, but forgot that it was there.

    The 201 15 was OE on all '63 Corvette engines and some later ported advance applications like L-71 and LT-1, but it wasn't available through service parts after about 1965. It was replaced with the ...163 which is a boat anchor as it may require up to 18" to pull to the limit, which doesn't even meet the Two-Inch Rule for a base engine with manual transmission.

    As a result, an original 201 15 in good condition is a rare find, nowadays.

    Duke
  • Bill H.
    Expired
    • August 8, 2011
    • 439

    #2
    Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

    Sold my 1950's Lionel, engine, 7 cars and a few houses last year for $1,500.................bought some nice C2 parts. I have '67 parts "hidden" all over the house. Dash is in the living room closet, couple sets of cast valve covers under the bed in the guest room, a set of 63 hood inserts........somewhere

    Comment

    • Stuart F.
      Expired
      • August 31, 1996
      • 4676

      #3
      Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

      Duke;

      You mean an original 201 15 is worth something? I still have mine stashed away in my stuff, not so much that I ever intended to re-use it, but rather I just can't throw any car parts away - just in case. I still have all my old pitted emblems, tail lights, and bent front bumper brackets (you don't drive a car for 50 years w/o hitting something - specially with cold metallic brakes). I have my original valve cover screws (pitched the old covers though after the crankcase explosion). I even have my original distributor plate too (replaced with a dyna-flyte BB many years ago). I did give away a few Holley carbs cause I grew to hate them.

      I still have 2 trunks in my garage that are from my teen years that I have moved 5 times now and have yet to open as I can't find the right keys for them. One's an old steamer, and I'd hate to pry it open as it looks kinda fragile, but your find gives mr new motivation.

      Thanks for posting. As for the rail stuff, well; I worked at EMD for 22 plus years and I never became a rail fan or "foamer", as we used to call them. On my last move to Florida, I pitched all the Operator's, Locomotive and Ehgine Service/Maintenance Manuals that I wrote. I still have some P.R. stuff, but all the original art from the 30's, 40's and 50's was destroyed by the Company. They would not let us have any of it. What a shame.

      Stu Fox

      Comment

      • Cecil L.
        Very Frequent User
        • May 31, 1980
        • 449

        #4
        Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

        I wonder what the difference is in the 201-15 and the MS 201-15, or are they one in the same?

        This is probably common knowledge, but just in case it's not, and for those who like to collect tech pubs:

        Comment

        • Timothy B.
          Extremely Frequent Poster
          • April 30, 1983
          • 5177

          #5
          Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

          On my 1967 300hp car the idle vacuum is approx. 18+" vacuum so the 1116163 vacuum advance worked well, it's all in at 16" vacuum. I don't think there are any problems using this control with the stock 300hp camshaft. I changed it back to the #355 V/A control (15*@12") just to keep all the original parts on the car and it also works fine without ping on accel.

          A 24* V/A control with 6-8* initial timing is WAY to much for a low hp engine like 250/300hp so I can see how a rough idle could happen.

          Comment

          • Duke W.
            Beyond Control Poster
            • December 31, 1992
            • 15597

            #6
            Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

            AFAIK all VACs from the era are stamped MS with the last three digits of the part number, like 201, and the maximum advance, like 15. I believe the MS is a vendor code.

            Reports I've received indicate the ...163 replacement, stamped B1, may take as much as 18-19" to pull to the limit, so most are marginal and don't pass the Two-Inch Rule on a base engine with manual trans and definitely won't pass with an auto trans.

            It always amazed me that Chevrolet kept changing the VAC on base engines for several years until they finally settled on a 12" version in '66. It's more aggressive than necessary for a manual, but autos don't generate as much manifold vacuum idling in Drive than a manual in Neutral.

            I recommend the 15" B22 for base engines with manuals and the 12" B26 or B20 for automatics.

            BTW, my original 201 15 has a rubber bushing on the pin.

            Duke
            Last edited by Duke W.; November 2, 2013, 10:44 AM.

            Comment

            • John D.
              Extremely Frequent Poster
              • November 30, 1979
              • 5507

              #7
              Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

              Duke, Check out the tube on your original 201 where the rubber hose goes. Notice it's not the same construction as the later service replacement 201's. It's soldered instead of the later style which is all one piece. John

              Comment

              • Duke W.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • December 31, 1992
                • 15597

                #8
                Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

                Yes, I can see that the nipple is soldered to the housing. I never noticed that back in the sixties.

                It looks like after the solder operation, but before plating, a tool was used to smooth the joint and create a nice fillet.

                How does that old expression go... they don't make 'em like that anymore.

                Duke

                Comment

                • Richard M.
                  Super Moderator
                  • August 31, 1988
                  • 11288

                  #9
                  Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

                  Duke, Great find. I must say the Lionels's are probably more fun but it's always fun to find something you thought you never had.

                  So I dug up that old L71 thread that you and the guys helped me with a few years ago. Here's my data when I tested the vacs then....

                  "1- Mighty Vac test on the VC1765 -> Starts to move @ 5.5" Hg, fully open at 10.5" Hg

                  FYI I also tested the used MS 163 and repro MS201 15 while I had it set up.

                  MS163 16 Starts to move @ 9.0" Hg, fully open at 15" Hg
                  MS201 15 Starts to move @ 12" Hg, fully open at 19" Hg (this seems very wrong) I have to dig up the specs, not right now."


                  I returned that POS repro and got my money back. The VC1765 worked perfectly and if you recall I changed to manifold vacuum as you recommended. That L71 is still running great over in Norway.

                  A few pics of the MS163 that came with the TI distributor I bought from a Driveline ad then. It was like new and was dated perfectly for the early 435hp engine, but had a intermittent pickup coil which I fixed.
                  PC230001.jpg PC230007.jpg PC230008.jpg PC230009.jpg
                  It has the soldered hose nipple and IIRC it had the rubber bushing on the pull lever too. I can see it in the magnified pic. It's still in a box of stuff leftover from the restoration somewhere in the shop.

                  What was the purpose of that rubber bushing? Just a softer ride?

                  Rich

                  Comment

                  • Duke W.
                    Beyond Control Poster
                    • December 31, 1992
                    • 15597

                    #10
                    Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

                    Some VACs have the rubber bushing to limit total advance.

                    If you cross reference the ...163 to any other brand part number, including Delco, you will get a part stamped B1, and those won't achieve full advance until 18-19". I always thought that this was the correct spec for the ...163, but maybe not if your GM ...163 is 15".

                    Also, I think that some Corvette parts vendors bought unstamped B1s from SMP, then stamped various OE numbers on them, so you got an original number, but the specs weren't even close to many OE VACs.

                    I never understood why GM replaced the ...201 in service with the ...163 circa 1964-65, yet continued to use the ...201 in production into the early seventies.

                    The ...201 specs are nominally 0 @ 8", 15 @ 15.5". The current B22 is the closest replacement at 0 @8", 16 @ 15".

                    Glad you reminded us of the considerably improved operating conditions on L71 with a 12" VAC connected to full time manifold vacuum - lower coolant temperatures in stop and go driving conditions and improved around town fuel economy. Some guys still don't believe it and have not made the simple, inexpensive change. No one who ever made the change had anything but good things to say about it.

                    Duke

                    Comment

                    • John D.
                      Extremely Frequent Poster
                      • November 30, 1979
                      • 5507

                      #11
                      Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

                      Not proud of this screwup but will tell you all anyhow. In the mid 80's I was ignorant to the fact that a 63 used a 201 VA. You see when you ordered a VA from Chevy the parts book listed the 163 and that's what you got. Or did you.
                      I had a bad habit of ordering stuff in massive qty. I am not sure how many 163's I bought but that's not the point. The point is what Duke just said.
                      The box lid had the 163 part number. But in the box the VA was a worthless B1. Paper weight. Gave them to my son to sell when we went to the fleas.
                      Sold some to a friend who used them for parts. End of story. JD

                      Comment

                      • Duke W.
                        Beyond Control Poster
                        • December 31, 1992
                        • 15597

                        #12
                        Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

                        Yeah, I think you 'fessed up to that one before, and you probably bought the fake ...163s before we knew much about the parts substitutions that went on over the years.

                        My original thinking was that the ...163 was fully out at 18-19" (like the B1), but given Rich's test data on a real GM ...163 maybe it was more like 15-16", which would make it very close to the B22.

                        I'm beginning to think that someone just screwed up by correlating the ...163 with the B1, and we'll probably just have to live with it forever.

                        As I've said here several times and in my San Diego National Convention presentation last year that there are a grand total of three currently available single point/TI distributor VACs, B22 (15"), B20/B26 (12"), and B28 (8"), that meet the Two-Inch Rule for all OE engines with full time vacuum advance and all through '74 that are converted to full time from ported vacuum advance.

                        BTW, all provide a maximum of 16 degs. crank advance at the specified inches Hg manifold vacuum, but production variance may be up to 2 degs./2" Hg. Those old mechanical analog engine control devices have considerable variation compared to very precise modern digital electonic engine control systems.

                        Duke

                        Comment

                        • Wayne M.
                          Expired
                          • February 29, 1980
                          • 6414

                          #13
                          Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

                          Duke -- tested a real MS 163_16 that I have and it holds steady at 18" Hg suction, with the rubber squeezed tightly at the end of the slot. Spec book says 8 to 10" to start advance; max advance (range) 16_1/4" to 18". Max distrib advance 8 degrees (= crank 16).
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                          • Michael F.
                            Very Frequent User
                            • December 31, 1992
                            • 745

                            #14
                            Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

                            I hope Duke and all the others with stashes of parts have laid out a plan for their collection and cars so they are not lost or scraped, I know I have instructed my spouse and in my will what to do with my stuff I deem worth passing on to those who would appreciate it. Of course hope this is many moons in the future for all, including myself.
                            Michael


                            70 Mulsanne Blue LT-1
                            03 Electron Blue Z06

                            Comment

                            • Wayne M.
                              Expired
                              • February 29, 1980
                              • 6414

                              #15
                              Re: You never know what you might find in a musty old suitcase (and the Two-Inch Rule

                              Interesting that you mention that subject. In exactly one month I'll reach the big "Seven-Oh" milestone. A 42-year old neighbor was found dead in bed a few weeks ago. I've begun to list parts that I have, and I'll probably write up a "for sale" description on my two Corvettes, with instructions that my wife submit it to the Driveline. Not much of a plan, I admit, but then I'm gonna live forever .

                              Comment

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