I ran across this one, it is from the March, 1963 Riverside AP/BP race where the Shelby Cobras (McDonald and Miles) first beat the new Sting Rays driven by Guldstrand and Stevens.
-
Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New Mexico -
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
That race occurred in the Fall of 1962. -
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
The first Cobras, were those 260 CID Ford motors? So Dave McDonald (00) went over to the Cobra from Corvette. Ive seen old pictures of him rebuilding a fuel injection unit on a picnic table at the track- neat.
Brave men (look at the 'roll bar' on the Cobra). I did some time trials with an MG-TF 1500 in 1959. SCCA required seat belts so I bought one (driver only) and installed by drilling through the plywood floor boards. The MG motto was 'Safety Fast', not Safety First.Comment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
OK, thanks, guess the Shelby Club got it wrong.....
Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New MexicoComment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
Sir Sterling Moss has told us that he never wore a seat belt whenever he raced, and was annoyed at those that did, and the shoulder harnesses of course. He considered it a bit "unmanly" and also said he felt safer since he could get out quickly, or be thrown clear, if anything happened. Ah, the old days....
Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New MexicoComment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
Yes, and so did Bondurant later. The first Cobras were 260s, but that was early '62, if this is fall '62, then they were 289s by that time, probably CSX2080 and up. I am a bit surprised the Cobras could outdo the FI '63 'Vettes, but I guess their handling was just that much better.Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New MexicoComment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
No, the October '62 race was all Z06 Coupes, and Doug Hooper won in a Corvette because Miles' Cobra broke.
This picture has to be early CY 1963. Guldstrand has his roadster with the Z06 components he installed, but he hasn't yet replaced the OE windshield with a SCCA legal windscreen.
DukeComment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
Actually the Cobra didn't handle as well as the Sting Ray, and they had less power. A thousand pounds less weight and better brakes (disk) is why the Cobras were unbeatable when they showed up, especially at "power" courses like Riverside.
This photo was taken at the entrance to Riverside's Turn 6 - at the end of the esses, which place a premium on handling, and Guldstrand is right there. Out of 6 there's a short chute to the entrace of Turn 7 and the Cobra will gain. Out of 7A and down the back straight the Cobra will stretch the lead to Turn 9, and then out of Turn 9 to the finish line the Cobra will have about a two second lead.
A much better power to weight ratio and better brakes more than made up for the Cobra's handling deficiencies compared to the Sting Ray, which gave the Cobra a 2 second advantage at Riverside. I was no contest, but since Shelby had built 100 Cobras SCCA classified it as a "production car", The Cobras should have had their own class they were that much faster!
Sting Rays did beat the Cobras a few times on shorter courses where power was less of a factor than handling, but the Sting Ray guys struggled with poor brakes until disks came along. The Washburn team (the car Vic Edelbrock vintage races, today) basically replaced the HD brakes with the J65 brakes that were much more consistent, and by mid-season they were so frustrated by the Cobras that they modified their Sting Ray beyond the production car rules and raced in the C-Modified class.
DukeLast edited by Duke W.; September 11, 2013, 06:01 PM.Comment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
Wow! Thanks for all that Duke, good to have experts to analyze the old pics.Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New MexicoComment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
Duke, are you sure that Shelby had constructed 100 cars by early '63? I am fairly sure he hadn't constructed the required number by the time they classified the Cobras as production. I remember a story about Shelby painting the same cars different colors to fool the sanctioning bodies. They, and the Ferrari GTO's should have been in a higher (modified) class leaving the Corvettes in A/P. Where they would have ruled the roost, so to speak, for at least another few years.Comment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
According to SAAC records, as I said the first 75-80 of the cars were 260s, and then the remaining 50 or so of the first series (Mark I) were 289s. Those were all competed by late '62, when they started the mods that included rack and pinion steering components borrowed from MG for the next series (Mark II). That series started production near the beginning of 1963.Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New MexicoComment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
I'll add that in the 6-hour enduro at Riverside in October '62 when the Sting Ray and Cobra first met, both were classified XP - "experimental production". That was pretty much the end of the racing season, and the next big race probably didn't happen until spring, '63 by which time SCCA had classified both as A-production.
BTW, back in those days SCCA races were flagged from a standing start. The photo was probably taken on the first lap due to the cars being tightly packed. The Cobra won the drag race to Turn 2 (beginning of the esses), and Guldstrand may have closed the gap through the esses, but as the laps wore on it was a different story. Most SCCA races were "sprints" in the sense that they were 10-15 laps and lasted about 20-30 minutes.
Classes were lumped into groups that ran together, and there would have been about six groups to cover all the production classes, modifieds, and formula cars, and open/closed wheel cars we always group segregated. A typical race weekend consisted of Saturday morning practice, afternoon qualifying, a Sunday morning warmup, and races in the afternoon, so you got about two hours of track time if you made all your group sessions.
DukeLast edited by Duke W.; September 12, 2013, 09:37 AM.Comment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
See page 20 of Dave Friedman's Shelby Cobra book. He states the 260 Cobra was homologated with only 8 built. He goes on to talk about the 289's as well. The Cobra and GTO should not have been racing against Corvettes when they first did, if strictly following the rules. The Corvette was a production car from the get-go and they were not.Comment
-
Re: Vintage Racing Picture
Back in that era the FIA and SCCA were willing to homologate production cars based on manufactures' statements of intent. I think FIA only required 50 examples, and SCCA was 100.
Ferrari got in trouble with the FIA over the 250GTO. I think the final official count was 39, so FIA retaliated by refusing to homologate the 250LM as a production car. I'm not sure, but I don't think LM production ever achieved 50. Ferrari retaliated by disbanding the works team, but there were plenty of private teams to carry the marque though LMs had to race as prototypes.
From '62 to '67 about 500 small block Cobras and 200-odd big blocks were built, and by the time the Cobra/Sting Ray battles got going at the beginning of the '63 racing season, there probably were something on the order of 100 Cobras floating around.
Shelby quickly made the Cobra faster by offering "options". The standard production 289 Cobra had the 271 HP engine from the Mustang, but you could "option" it with Weber carbs, magnesium wheels - usually "dealer" installed.
It takes months of design and testing for GM to release significant options. The GM bureaucracy just wasn't set up to release "options" on a weekly basis that were basically aftermarket racing parts.
Of course, this led to the Grand Sport program and we all know that story.
DukeComment
Comment