1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions - NCRS Discussion Boards

1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

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  • William H.
    Very Frequent User
    • March 1, 1999
    • 249

    1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

    100_3858.jpg100_3859.jpg100_3860.jpg100_3862.jpgHello Guys,
    I think I have posted more this week than my entire previous membership! I was rebuilding the brass vacuum switch. The one that mounts on the top of the heater box and controls the vacuum signal to the hot water valve. The valve at the heater core in the engine compartment. I read many previous posts and read D.r Rebuild's instructions on how to do it. Here are some pictures of the valve apart and some drawings showing the dimensions of the parts. The dimension of the rubber seal is actually the deminsions of the brass parts that it is in contact with so .125" is the od of the shaft the seal is mounted on and .215-.218" is actually the id of the main housing bore. The od of the rubber is actually about .200". The id of the rubber I could not measure so that is why I put down the dimensions I did. The holes in the side of the housing inside the tubes the vacuum hose connects to were plugged up so I slowly worked my way up with number size drill bits untill I met some resistance. I belive that these holes should be #66 or about .033"
    Now for the questions. I took everything apart cleaned it good, lubricated the seal wih silicone grease, and put it back together. The plunger now moves very freely but there is no vacuum pased through the switch no matter where the plunger is. I belive that the seal is moving freely on the shaft and therefore blocking the vacuum hole all the time. Is the seal supposed to slide back and forth on the shaft or should it be retained on the shaft towards the end with the button on it? Or is it supposed to be stuck in a certain part of the bore and not move at all? it seems that if it stayed on the shaft towards the plunger end and moved with the shaft but not freely from it, than the switch would work. The question is what makes this happen. do I need a smaller seal? Should the seal be glued to the shaft or into the bore? Please help.
    Also, The good Dr. says that he replaced it with an o ring so maybe he can say if it stuck in one place or moves up and down the shaft. I am curious though if an o ring instead of the long seal might affect the operation point of the switch? And one last thing his directions say the the plunger or knob should unscrew from the shaft but mine did not. It was pressed on about .250" I have rebuilt two of these switches and all of the observations above were the same on both of them. I know that earlier switches had different size vacuum hoses, ( I.e. two small ones vs 1 big and 1 little on this switch, so maybe the other style switch is assymbled a little differently. Although the Dr. said that the switch he rebuilt was on his 67.
    So I think it should be the same style as on my 65. I would greatly appreciate any comments or Suggestions and once again thanks to Dr. Rebuild for making such a great catalog and selling such great parts.
    Thanks again,
    Bill
  • Don H.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • December 1, 1981
    • 1487

    #2
    Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

    Bill, I can't answer any of your questions, it has been too long since I rebuilt mine. What I will say is that I un-hook the vacuum (and plug) during the summer and hook back up for the heating season. This works perfectly for me but would be a problem if you tried to do a PV. Good Luck, Don H.

    Comment

    • Mike G.
      Expired
      • January 1, 1991
      • 418

      #3
      Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

      If I recall correctly, the seal moves with the shaft and is held in position on the stepped-down section of the shaft. I used a stack of o-rings that I had to sand down to the proper OD.

      Love Geoff's catalog too...
      Last edited by Mike G.; August 23, 2013, 11:02 AM.

      Comment

      • Larry M.
        Extremely Frequent Poster
        • January 1, 1992
        • 2691

        #4
        Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

        There is an excellent article on rebuilding this switch on the "other forum". Search for "Have You Seen the Inside of a C-60 A/C Vacuum Valve.....?" by Ron Miller. Dated 6-30-2012. C1-C2 Forum Section. Ron also provides the part numbers of the small o-rings he used to successfully rebuild his switch. A lot of excellent info.

        CLIFFS NOTES: Sourced from Grainger Supply, Part # 1KER6. Buna-N material. ID = 5/64 inch. OD = 13/64 inch. Two required (2). Ron said he has MANY spares that he will send with a SASE.

        This switch is also available in reproduction if needed. Check LICS.

        Larry

        Comment

        • William H.
          Very Frequent User
          • March 1, 1999
          • 249

          #5
          Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

          OK thereis something funny going on here. I can make the valve so that it passes vacume when the plunger is depressed and dumps it when the plunger is released. But this is backwards from what the service manual says. I cannot get it to work like the service manual says. My water valve is on the car but the heater core is bypassed so I cannot check the valve. IS there anyone out there that has a good water valve off the car that can verify for sure that it opens when vacuum is applied? Or somone with a vacuum switch that can verify that it passes vacuum through it when the plunger is Not depressed and shuts it off/ dumps it when it is depressed?
          Thanks in advance
          Bill

          Comment

          • Larry M.
            Extremely Frequent Poster
            • January 1, 1992
            • 2691

            #6
            Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

            Originally posted by William Holder (31950)
            OK thereis something funny going on here. I can make the valve so that it passes vacume when the plunger is depressed and dumps it when the plunger is released. But this is backwards from what the service manual says. I cannot get it to work like the service manual says. My water valve is on the car but the heater core is bypassed so I cannot check the valve. IS there anyone out there that has a good water valve off the car that can verify for sure that it opens when vacuum is applied? Or somone with a vacuum switch that can verify that it passes vacuum through it when the plunger is Not depressed and shuts it off/ dumps it when it is depressed?
            Thanks in advance
            Bill
            I can definitely state that the original hot water valve on these C2 AC cars will open with vacuum, and will close when vented to air. The hot water valves from the late C3 era cars had this action reversed. I am not certain regarding the vacuum switch without getting under the dash of my car and checking operation and position of the switch.

            Larry

            Comment

            • Mike G.
              Expired
              • January 1, 1991
              • 418

              #7
              Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

              Originally posted by Larry Mulder (20401)
              I can definitely state that the original hot water valve on these C2 AC cars will open with vacuum, and will close when vented to air. The hot water valves from the late C3 era cars had this action reversed. I am not certain regarding the vacuum switch without getting under the dash of my car and checking operation and position of the switch.

              Larry
              Yep. And the button switch should be closed (no vacuum output) with the button depressed. Pulling the knob allows the button to extend out and opens the flow of vacuum to the control valve.

              Comment

              • William H.
                Very Frequent User
                • March 1, 1999
                • 249

                #8
                Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

                Ok I got my hot water valve off and it does work as everyone says. Vacuum makes it open. I just cant for the life of me figure out how to make the vacuum switch work so that it passes vacuum when it is extended. I guess Im going to order a new one from LIC and take it apart and see how it is made after I verify that it works as delivered. I'll keep everyone posted.Bill

                Comment

                • William H.
                  Very Frequent User
                  • March 1, 1999
                  • 249

                  #9
                  Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

                  Hello Again!
                  Here is a picture I pirated from the other forum. It shows the relationship of the plunger and the housing. If you put the o rings in the very smallest part of the shaft( the .092 part) than in the postiion shown (extended) it blocks the vacuum from passing because it is in the middle of the two ports. Then when you push in on the plunger. The o rings move to the left of the big port and vacume can flow. Also when you release the plunger this exposes the small port to the hole on the backside ( Not shown here) and this releases the vacuum from the water valve so that it can close. if you don't "Dump the vacuum somwhere the valve cannot close.
                  This is backwards from how everyone says it should work.
                  Now I can see that if you put the o rings on the very right end of the shaft, ( Against the .187 part). With the plunger extended there would be vacuum flowing between the ports and if you depressed the punger than the o ring would cover the smaller port. this would be good except there is no where for the vacuum to go and so the water valve would still be open. I just dont see any way for this to work like we are saying that it should. I can see somone putting the o ring in the smallest part and then thinking that it is working correctly ( because they see vacuum flowing and then stoping) but it would definitely be backwards.
                  I enclosed a picture of the seal that was in both my valves. It is too long to work on the left end but would seem to work on the right end. It is too small to seal the bore and too big to stay in one place on the shaft. I tried to make a new one out of vacuum line but as stated there was no where for the vacuum to go when the plunger was depressed.
                  Any Ideals or explanations?IMG_1832.jpgIMG_1829.jpg100_3860.jpg
                  Thanks Again,
                  Bill

                  Comment

                  • Mike G.
                    Expired
                    • January 1, 1991
                    • 418

                    #10
                    Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

                    Bill: this is good. Was just doing some vacuum checks on my car, which has the "o-rings in the shaft step" fix. With the button in, there is no vacuum flow through the switch. OK. With the control knob pulled (button out), vacuum does flow through the switch to the coolant valve. OK.

                    But...when the knob is then pushed back in, the vacuum does NOT bleed off and the coolant flow valve is still open seemingly.

                    So the engineers used that sleeve seal for a reason. Some cutaway drawings would sure help here to figure out how the small port is exposed to the bleed hole in the "plunger in" position, using the original sleeve seal configuration.

                    Comment

                    • William H.
                      Very Frequent User
                      • March 1, 1999
                      • 249

                      #11
                      Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

                      Well I got it to work but im pretty shure its not how it was originally.
                      I ended up with two small pieces of vacuum hose glued to each side of the .092" step they are about .100 wide so the one to the left of the step keeps the air from leaking out the left end and the one on the right side of the step directs the vacuum to the small port when the plunger is extended and then when the plunger is pushed in it is between the large and small ports blocking the flow. When it is there it lets the vacuum out of the valve and through the small bleed hole. Or rather lets atmospheric pressure through the bleed hole and into the small port and o the water valve shutting off the hot water. I'll post some more pictures when I take it back apart. I had to super glue thee vacuum hose to the shaft in two places and then sanded it down to about .210 in the drill press. Once again it works but I dont think it is correct because both switches I have, had the long .310 piec of seal in them unless somone tried to rebuild both of them and did it wrong. I bet if you take your switch apart the o rings are not in the necked down .092 position but are to the right side. Just a guess. Ill keep you posted.
                      Bill

                      Comment

                      • William H.
                        Very Frequent User
                        • March 1, 1999
                        • 249

                        #12
                        Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

                        Hello again here are the pictures of the seals as I made them. The valve works as described. Vacuum with the plunger out passes through and with it depressed it is blocked and dumps the left over vacuum through the hole in the back.
                        I enclosed two pictures with the seal that I found in both valves in the only place I can see that it would work which is on the left side. The only problem with this is that all the vacuum leaks out the right end unless maybe there was a seal there that disintigrated. The other problem with that configuration is that it doesn't Dump the vacuum when the plunger is depressed because the seal still covers up the bleed hole. The only way I can see that working is if the hot water valve had a bleed hole in the input side. Maybe somone with an original water valve can tell if it has a bleed hole on the vacuum side. I know that my reproduction does not. If anyone has any idea how this was working with the long seal in it please enlighten me! I am about to go crazy trying to figure it out.
                        Thanks in advance,
                        Bill
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                        • Garry M.
                          Frequent User
                          • June 30, 1997
                          • 50

                          #13
                          Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

                          Hi Bill,

                          It is likely that the your made up seal is just slightly too long, and thus covers up the bleed hole. I went through the same process when I tried to rebuild the valve for my '66. Short of cutting two groves in the plunger so that one can use a single o-ring on either end, it can take quite a bit of trial/error to find the right balance of getting it to seal and still operate correctly (i.e., bleed vacuum).

                          Attached is a picture of the seal I made. I used shrink tubing to keep the modified o-rings in place, replicating the function of the original seal. What made it tough was getting the o-rings down to the right size. I ultimately ended up just buying a new valve, which still leaked but not nearly as bad as my original. I've actually written 60% of a technical article about my efforts... perhaps I'll finish it up sooner rather than later.

                          Cheers!
                          Garry

                          Plunger Final Assembly.jpg

                          Comment

                          • William F.
                            Extremely Frequent Poster
                            • June 9, 2009
                            • 1363

                            #14
                            Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

                            Do the repos from LIC, etc. work? If so, why all the trouble rebuilding original which won't be judged, except for satisfaction of doing it?

                            Comment

                            • Garry M.
                              Frequent User
                              • June 30, 1997
                              • 50

                              #15
                              Re: 1965 Coupe Air conditioning Hot Water Vacuum control swtich info and Questions

                              Yes they work - but they do still leak a little (at least the one I got does). I did it just to see how they were built and if it was possible to rebuild with reasonable effort. Tried to come up with a better version, but it just wasn't worth the effort.

                              Comment

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