195 thermostat?

[John H.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

If any fresh rebuild engine requires more than about 15 seconds of running to break in with modern piston rings, there is something seriously wrong with the bore finish or?? If an engine builder tells you it will take hundreds of miles to seat the rings, find a different builder because he has no clue. Those stories go back several decades, to the days of rough hone and chrome rings.

Michael -

Well stated. We built Viper V-10's right next to the Chassis Line from the bare block up, and the moly-ringed pistons, on the rods, came from Mahle ready to install; the iron-linered aluminum block was honed EXACTLY as specified by Mahle, and the rings were fully seated by the time the chassis exited the roll-test booth, about five minutes after first-start. ANY engine using modern moly-faced rings and honed exactly as specified by the piston ring manufacturer will do exactly the same thing. "The rings haven't seated yet" is an excuse resulting from using cheap rings and/or inadequate honing procedure - there's no reason for that in today's world.


RollTest.JPGBareBlock.JPGRodAndPiston.JPGRodBrgAssy.JPG

[Joe R.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

See if you can obtain a 30W single weight oil in an older spec such as SA or SB. Run it a few tankfuls of gas, or until you notice oil consumption declining.

Dave,

What are the Zinc and Phosphorous specs on API SA & SB oil? I did a quick Google search, it said SA was superceded in the 30's and that SB has low amounts of ZDDP. I would proceed very carefully before putting anything other than CJ-4 oil in an engine that has a sliding surface valve train. Otherwise, you run the risk of flattening the cam, which is a much worse problem than the one we're trying to solve.

Joe

[Joe C.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

I wish it were that simple. Here in Minnesota, the street rodders have worked with the legislature and non-oxygenated (no
alcohol) gas is almost universally available. I don't think it's a problem, because I use gas from the same sources in my
'68 base motor convertible and my stock '51 Ford with no problem. I want to thank all who have responded to this thread,
partially for the specific suggestions, but more for making me look a little harder at the problem. After thinking about
it, the 195 thermostat deal is just my way of looking for an easy way out. (It gets real old removing the spark plug
shielding and changing plugs on one of these.)
Here's the story. I had this engine rebuilt by a supposed pro about 6 years ago. I got dyno sheets with it that showed it
produced 336 HP. I was pretty satisfied with this until I got around to driving the car. The first problem is that the
engine was built real "tight". When I first got it, it wouldn't idle for more that a minute until the temperature started
to climb. After about 800 miles, that problem went away. Then I had serious plug fouling problems. With help from the
board, I realized that the 160 thermostat and AC44R plugs were causing a problem. I changed to AC45R's and a 180
thermostat and things got a lot better. It was running rich, however, so I decided to get into the carb, which was a
replacement 4160 I had purchased about 15 years ago, but had less than 5000 miles on it. After many weeks of changing this
and that, I found 3 problems. The prinmary throttle blades were installed upside down; the original 65 marked jets had been
drilled out, and the primary float level was set way low to make up for the drilled out jets. I fixed all of this and
installed new #65 jets and a new 6.5 power valve. Just for insurance, I bought a 2" thick granite surface plate, and spent
several hours making sure all of the mating surfaces were dead flat. I rebuilt the carb using all genuine Holley parts, installed the carb and new plugs (the Denso W14U's) last summer, and drove the car the rest of the year with no problems. I also should tell you the engine was built with 9.5 pistons and a Comp Cams XE-262 cam. As I said above, the engine starts immediately when I hit the key and runs strong up to 6200-6300 RPM (Which is as far as I care to turn it). The other problem that I have with the engine is that the rebuilder must have installed a Hi-Pressure/Hi-Volume pump, because the only time the Oil Pressure gauge is when the car is full hot at idle.
When I came back to Minnesota about a month ago, I took the car out of storage, and the occasional stumble problem reared it's ugly head. At first I thought it might be the 6 month old gas in the car, but after I filled it with non-oxygenated premium about a week ago the problem didn't go away. I changed plugs a couple of days ago (to AC45R's), and things got better, but it still has the occasional stumble. The timing, dwell, and vacuum advance are right on as far as I can see. Thought that because of the nature of the problem, it might be a power valve problem, but I tried a couple of different ones with no improvement, so I am back to a new 6.5 with a new gasket.
Someone asked whether the plugs look gas-fouled or oil-fouled; I think they look oil-fouled, and that the constant rich condition since the rebuild may have washed down the cylinder walls. I will take some pictures of the plugs to post when I get back to my shop. I think I may be screwed here. It seems to want to use about a quart of oil every 2 tanks of gas, and the mileage around town is about 8 MPG. I went on a 150 mile trip last fall and got 14 MPG As I said earlier, the car runs cool all of the time. The laser thermometer shows 176 at the thermostat housing and less in the radiator, which temperatures are in line with the dash gauge.
At this point, I suspect that there is a problem deep in the carburetor, so I have gotten another Holley to swap in. Wish me luck.

Comp's "Extreme Energy" series has much more aggressive flanks than all of the OE Chevy SBC cams, including the 097 which had the fastest flanks of all the OE Chevy SBC cams. In my humble opinion, I would definitely NOT trust the phosphorous levels in API Spec. CJ-4 oil with a flat tappet cam of such aggressiveness unless you change the oil every 1000 miles, since the phosphorous is sacrificial and gets used up as mileage is accumulated. If it were my engine, I'd spend the extra money and use a 1400 ppm ZDDP product like Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs 10W-30. Better yet, I'd install a hydraulic roller, or revert back to a OE Chevy grind with marshmallow springs.

If the plugs are oil fouled, then the easiest place to look is at a sealing issue between the intake and the heads. Are all 8 plugs oil fouled, along with the threads?

OE ignition systems are weak, and will not tolerate anything amiss within the engine. They will allow plugs to foul easily and the engine to misfire. You might eventually have to revert to an oil plug or a hotter heat range to try to keep the plugs from fouling if you can't find the cause of the oil condition. Better yet, installation of a Pertronix II trigger with a 45 KV coil and 9 mm plug wires will guarantee clean plugs, and can all be hidden under the stock shielding.

[Dick W.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

Michael -

Well stated. We built Viper V-10's right next to the Chassis Line from the bare block up, and the moly-ringed pistons, on the rods, came from Mahle ready to install; the iron-linered aluminum block was honed EXACTLY as specified by Mahle, and the rings were fully seated by the time the chassis exited the roll-test booth, about five minutes after first-start. ANY engine using modern moly-faced rings and honed exactly as specified by the piston ring manufacturer will do exactly the same thing. "The rings haven't seated yet" is an excuse resulting from using cheap rings and/or inadequate honing procedure - there's no reason for that in today's world.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]47113[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47114[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47115[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47116[/ATTACH]

Several moons ago we built HD engines using chrome faced rings that would take an hour to two hours to get the crankcase blow by down to he desired range. Build several of the same type of engines with moly faced rings, by the time the engines would reach operating temperature, the blow by would be at the bottom of the scale, and when installed, oil consumption? what is that? Moly is the only way to go

[Michael H.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

Several moons ago we built HD engines using chrome faced rings that would take an hour to two hours to get the crankcase blow by down to he desired range. Build several of the same type of engines with moly faced rings, by the time the engines would reach operating temperature, the blow by would be at the bottom of the scale, and when installed, oil consumption? what is that? Moly is the only way to go

The only problem with moly/iron rings is if the builder makes the cyl walls a bit rough (like in the old days) instead of the smoother finish required in later years for moly rings. The rough surface would tear up a set of iron rings in no time and never seat properly.

[Joe L.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

Mike,

But didn't those solid lifter engines use a standard volume oil pump and edge orifice lifters.

Tim------

No PRODUCTION Chevrolet small block engine ever used a high volume oil pump. A few used a standard volume, high pressure pump, though. All high volume pumps are also high pressure.

All small blocks with mechanical lifters since 1957 and through 1972 (the last year that mechanical lifters were used for any PRODUCTION small block) were edge-orifice type. I don't know about 1955-56.

[Joe L.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

Michael -

Well stated. We built Viper V-10's right next to the Chassis Line from the bare block up, and the moly-ringed pistons, on the rods, came from Mahle ready to install; the iron-linered aluminum block was honed EXACTLY as specified by Mahle, and the rings were fully seated by the time the chassis exited the roll-test booth, about five minutes after first-start. ANY engine using modern moly-faced rings and honed exactly as specified by the piston ring manufacturer will do exactly the same thing. "The rings haven't seated yet" is an excuse resulting from using cheap rings and/or inadequate honing procedure - there's no reason for that in today's world.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]47113[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47114[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47115[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]47116[/ATTACH]

John-----


Yes, modern moly rings are pre-lapped when they are manufactured and require no break-in period.

[Dennis O.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

Guys, Thanks for all the advice. To answer a few questions, First, the engine has the stock PCV system. Second, the carb responds to the idle screw adjustments (it didn't before, which is how I found the the problem with the upside down primary throttle plates). I am quite interested in the "discussion" about whether the HV/HP oil pump contributes to the oil consumption problem. If I can make a deal with my friend, I think I am going to have a standard pump installed. The pegged out oil pressure gauge really bugs me. I am using Valvoline 10W/30 oil with a pint of GM's EOS. I am more than a little encouraged, because it seems there is a chance that my cylinder walls and rings may not be toast. The engine has about 2200 miles on it, so it should be broken in by now. One thing is certain; I am not going to drive this thing any more until I solve this problem (I still have my '68 convertible). Tomorrow, I am going to install the new carb, and see what happens. Stay tuned. One good thing about this thread : I was on the fence about replacing the oil pump; now I am committed to getting it done. Thanks.

[Gerard F.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

Dennis,

Hate to raise another issue, but could it be the plug wires or the valve seals? Is the black oil fouling only on certain plugs or all in general? The stumble on acceleration could also be a timing issue.

I had a problem with my 67/327/300 a few years ago, where I was fouling on only a couple of cylinders. Turned out that the plug wires were bad on those cylinders, but I also suspected the valve seals on those cylinders were going.

Changed the plug wires with correct repros, (and tested them first for ohms) and then started using an upper valve lubricate in the gas. Solved the oil burning problem.

But I still had a little stumble going up a hill on acceleration. Joe C (above) did a little timing change for me and the problem with stumbling went away.

My 67 has its original engine with 86k miles, never been overhauled or even had the intake or exhaust manifolds taken off. It runs just fine.
But I religiously use the that upper valve lubricant in the gas now(maybe I'm wasting my money, but it seems to help (even on my 82 El Camino)).
The blue smoke is gone, and oil consumption down.

So I don't think it is a carb issue, oil consumption or blue smoke is beyond that.

I'm no expert, just my two cents. Sometimes, we can complicate things for you.

All the Best,

[Timothy B.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

Dennis,

Is the carburetor on the car a swap meet carburetor, from your description about throttle blades up side down etc. it seems like that is the case. There may be two problems with the engine but IMO you should look at that carburetor first, it will not fix your oil problem but it may fix the stumble.

[Dennis O.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

To answer a couple of questions : First, all of the plugs look the same (I am still going to get some pictures posted). Second, the spark plug wires were new LL re-pops installed when the engine was rebuilt. I have "ohmed them out" twice in this process and they were OK, but I am nervous about them after so many plug changes. We all know what a pain in the ass it is to change plug wires on these, so when I bite the bullet for the oil pump change, I'll have new plug wires installed. This time, I want to use some Packard 440 I bought instead of the reproductions. The thing that makes me suspect the fuel side of the equation instead of ignition/timing, is the fact that it ran flawlessly after I got it sorted out last summer; never missed a beat in August, September, and October. I will get back after I do some work on it. Oh yeah, the carb was a proper replacement 3810 I bought new just after I got the car in 1987. The rebuilders said they "tweaked" the carb when they did the dyno runs. This is another I suspect the carb, even after the corrections I made.

[Timothy B.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

Dennis,

If the people that tweaked the carburetor installed the throttle blades upside down I would check everything inside.

That's not to say with a camshaft change like in your engine the carburetor can't be tuned better but you may want to try and discover what's been done. The 3810 specs should be in the archives, one other thing to keep in mind is that sometimes these Holley gaskets can dry and cause problems after sitting when they get old.

[Dennis O.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

Trust me, everything these people did is open to question. I thoroughly went through the carb, made sure all of the surfaces were dead flat and installed all new Holley-made components (jets, power valve, accelerator pump, gaskets, etc.) less than a year ago. This is why my next step is changing out the carb for another one I have obtained that was just commercially rebuilt. Another remote possibility is that the gas in the car had gone bad over the winter, and the fill up (although from a pump clearly marked "non-oxygenated") may have not been what it said it was. (That has been known to have happen up here.) If none of this helps, I am going to be checking the advance canister and advance curve. I guess the lesson learned here is that, no matter how good their reputation, shops specializing in race engines may not be the best to rebuild a vintage stock, engine. I have been burned once before with this, when I entrusted a '54 hemi to another shop specializing in current race engines.

[Timothy B.]

Re: 195 thermostat?

Dennis,

The metering block could be warped on the inside causing the gasket not to seal when it gets old and dry, just keep that in mind. The new Holley metering blocks have a webbing cast to them to avoid this.