Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

[Michael J.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

I guess ones point of view on these matters depends on whose butt is on fire.

Indeed it does, I have no experience in 63 years with such things as the lack of a battery disconnect or untaped gas cap leading to fires in indoor shows. I'm sure it happened before all the government oppression, just don't know of it and I would suspect a very rare occurrence. That is part of my problem. I spent the day yesterday with my Mopar club at their big annual event, almost 200 Mopars (and I am trying to bring some CDCIF matrix discipline to their judging), when we arrived at a city park, outdoors, the fire chief greeted us with a notice that: "If you are parked within 20 ft. of a temporary structure (pop-up canopy, shade tent, chairs with covers, etc.) or a tree, your vehicle's battery must have a disconnect switch disconnected or the battery removed". Here we go again, next year it will be the taped gas cap. I am getting tired of government always assuming you are an idiot, uneducated, and they must "protect" you from yourself and others by enforcing illogical and oppressive regulations based on a one in a million probability, with a typical government attitude of "one-size fit all". We see it from regulations on soft drink sizes to the oil used to fry your fries to wire-taps, and each time you give up more and more of your freedoms for government "security". Enough is enough, personal responsibility and accountability are disappearing from our country as more and more government intrusion occurs and people get the false sense government will do everything for you and keep you safe at all times no matter what you do. OK, maybe the last rant....

[Terry M.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

I am with you now Mike. I remember one NCRS event where the swap meet tents required EXIT signs.

However, all of it is efforts at prevention rather than extinguishing the fire after the fact. Sometimes I do get frustrated at others looking out for us, but then there are those times when we fail to look out for ourselves. Death shouldn't be the consequence of that failure.

I deal every day with a whole bunch of safety regulations, but ours are designed to keep people from getting electrocuted. High voltage takes no prisoners, and in that case prevention is absolutely necessary. One brief laps in judgement can be fatal.

[Michael J.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

I am with you now Mike. I remember one NCRS event where the swap meet tents required EXIT signs.

However, all of it is efforts at prevention rather than extinguishing the fire after the fact. Sometimes I do get frustrated at others looking out for us, but then there are those times when we fail to look out for ourselves. Death shouldn't be the consequence of that failure.

I deal every day with a whole bunch of safety regulations, but ours are designed to keep people from getting electrocuted. High voltage takes no prisoners, and in that case prevention is absolutely necessary. One brief laps in judgement can be fatal.

I absolutely agree with your assessment of safety regs when it comes to high risk industrial situations. I spent my life on drilling rigs, high pressure petroleum pipelines and cryogenic gas processing operations where extreme pressures and temperatures exist at all times along with heavy moving equipment. The same thing as your business, one lapse and many, many people can die very quickly. Somehow, things like that make these indoor (and now outdoor in some place) car show regs look a bit silly.

[Michael J.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

If they do not strictly enforce all these endless regulations to prevent every sort of mishap on earth, and one person is injured no matter how slightly, lawsuit city and millions of dollars paid out in compensation. So, it is actually we who brought all of this onto ourselves.

Not sure about you, but I am not a lawyer and have never brought about lawsuits against anyone, so "we" is not me.

[Terry M.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

Not sure about you, but I am not a lawyer and have never brought about lawsuits against anyone, so "we" is not me.

It doesn't have to be you or me Mike who bring the suit, Mike.

I did my job to the letter and found myself in a room with a TV camera and a dozen lawyers representing everyone that was sued. Maybe I should be proud that in 45 years that has so far been the lone law suit, but somehow I can't get to that point. The one thing I am proud of is that one of the attorneys for the aggrieved told me that after deposing 15 people I was the first and only one who could explain to him in ordinary terms what the task was that resulted in his client's injury. I thought of a number of wise a$$ remarks, including asking him why his client was doing something he couldn't explain, but I settled on telling him that knowing the job was one of the qualifications for my job. And I put emphasis on the word MY. I think he got my meaning.

Edit add: I should add that this incident did not involve a fatality. The injury required several days of hospitalization and a number of following plastic surgeries and a long period of therapy. It was not as bad as it could have been, but a lot worse that it might have been. Had all the safety rules been followed, there would have been no injury.

In my business, and I believe in Mike's too, there are a number of redundant safety rules and if all af them are followed no incident will occur. Even if one is missed here and there, if one is lucky, nothing will result; but like aircraft incidents, if several "oops" take place the results can be most unpleasant. Folks in the fire prevention business have similar rules that are designed, no matter how silly they seem to us, to protect us. Note, I said fire prevention, not fire fighting. Those are very different systems. The fire prevention people make the rules, we have to follow them. We don't have to like it, but then we can take our business elsewhere if we strongly don't like it.

[Michael J.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

It doesn't have to be you or me Mike who bring the suit, Mike.

I did my job to the letter and found myself in a room with a TV camera and a dozen lawyers representing everyone that was sued. Maybe I should be proud that in 45 years that has so far been the lone law suit, but somehow I can't get to that point. The one thing I am proud of is that one of the attorneys for the aggrieved told me that after deposing 15 people I was the first and only one who could explain to him in ordinary terms what the task was that resulted in his client's injury. I thought of a number of wise a$$ remarks, including asking him why his client was doing something he couldn't explain, but I settled on telling him that knowing the job was one of the qualifications for my job. And I put emphasis on the word MY. I think he got my meaning.

Edit add: I should add that this incident did not involve a fatality. The injury required several days of hospitalization and a number of following plastic surgeries and a long period of therapy. It was not as bad as it could have been, but a lot worse that it might have been. Had all the safety rules been followed, there would have been no injury.

In my business, and I believe in Mike's too, there are a number of redundant safety rules and if all af them are followed no incident will occur. Even if one is missed here and there, if one is lucky, nothing will result; but like aircraft incidents, if several "oops" take place the results can be most unpleasant. Folks in the fire prevention business have similar rules that are designed, no matter how silly they seem to us, to protect us. Note, I said fire prevention, not fire fighting. Those are very different systems. The fire prevention people make the rules, we have to follow them. We don't have to like it, but then we can take our business elsewhere if we strongly don't like it.

Safety rules in industrial situations are multi-layer and have much built in redundancy as you say Terry. And since the people who make them are the ones who know most about the systems they are regulating (the businesses, not government), it is very rare for an accident to happen. I would question city/county/state fire codes for this same level of experience and expertise, I find it lacking compared to industrial operations and associations writing safety rules and procedures.

I hear you about the lawsuits and how unpleasant they are for all involved. I am fortunate to only have been involved in a few, and now that I am retired I look forward to never having to be in the sad place they call courthouses.

We can take our business elsewhere if we dislike the stupidity of the fire regs, but it is not easily done. We recently had a car show near my place in New Mexico in a large, indoor ballroom at a casino owned by the Pojoaque Pueblo nation. They don't have to follow any rules but their own, and they had none for such things, but the surrounding county of course does. All of us involved in the car club staging it had a meeting to establish our own, which didn't include many onerous rules on battery cutoffs, tape on gas tanks, etc. I did include a full inspection for any fluids leaking and electrical systems with issues. Those cars who failed were told to park outside. Don't try this at most shows in states and cities with big government however, they have their own "rules" to save you.

[George W.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

WOW,Terry and Mike what a discourse; I enjoyed reading your comments and the fire pictures were awesome...

[Michael J.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

WOW,Terry and Mike what a discourse; I enjoyed reading your comments and the fire pictures were awesome...

Thanks! Guess wandering off topic sometimes is OK, or not......

[Terry M.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

WOW,Terry and Mike what a discourse; I enjoyed reading your comments and the fire pictures were awesome...

George just wanted me to quit posting with you Mike and get his AJS points for Tahoe. I had to do that so he quits bugging me. He (George) should lose a couple of points for not knowing the rules though.

[George W.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

Terry, Ouch!, but thanks for posting the Lake Tahoe AJS points; the Tahoe Regional was excellent, a beautiful location, good people...everyone should try to make one Lake Tahoe Reg. Meet. C U all at the National Meet.

[Dick W.]

Re: Fire Extinquisher Requirements for the Hampton National Convention

Folks in the fire prevention business have similar rules that are designed, no matter how silly they seem to us, to protect us. Note, I said fire prevention, not fire fighting. Those are very different systems. The fire prevention people make the rules, we have to follow them. We don't have to like it, but then we can take our business elsewhere if we strongly don't like it.

The codes are based around NFPA 1. The codes are written by a dedicated group of fire service professionals, insurance engineers, building code inspectors, etc. NFPA 1 is a model code and leaves adoption as written, or being modified to the entity having jurisdiction.

Quote I heard early on when I joined the fire service, "when the alarm has sounded, training had ended, and fire prevention has failed" The object of the codes, as Terry stated, is prevention, not suppression.