Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation - NCRS Discussion Boards

Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

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  • Patrick H.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • December 1, 1989
    • 11643

    Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

    A couple of weeks ago I was taking the orange 72 for a ride and in the last mile or so the pedal started to go to the floor as I sat at stop signs. Given that the only part not replaced a few years ago was the aftermarket master cylinder I knew where the problem was (car had sat 15 years previously). After talking to the car's owner we decided to purchase and install the new "correct" reproduction. The car has power brakes, and the original booster is still in place.

    I order the repro and installed in on Wednesday after bench bleeding it. The entire system was then bled. No issues, and because it was raining I did not test drive the car. Yesterday the owner came over and was ready to pick it up, but we found that on driving it the pedal was really, really firm, had little play before stopping, and the car stopped slower than expected. We test drove it around town, no improvements noted, so over a few hours last night we bled it 3 times with no change in pedal feel or road function. I checked the depth of the pushrod hole and it matched the previous MC, we checked the pushord and we checked how it all seated together. No issues were found. All 4 calipers are working and the wheels turn freely when brakes are not applied.

    As it sits, every time you press on the brakes you have to push quite hard, and it really is like pushing on a brick. This is vastly different than the cars has ever been before. It is like all of the "feel" is gone from the brakes, and it is more like pushing on a non-power brake pedal than a power brake pedal. The other two PB Corvettes here feel nothing like this as well. If you stomp on the pedal as hard as you can it will not lock the tires or even get close. You will stop, but not quickly.

    Given that the only part that was changed is the master cylinder my assumption (!) is that the new master cylinder has a problem. Would you agree? I plan on calling the vendor on Monday to see about getting a different one if consensus is that the MC is at fault.

    Patrick
    Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
    71 "deer modified" coupe
    72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
    2008 coupe
    Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.
  • Jimmy B.
    Expired
    • July 31, 1980
    • 584

    #2
    Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

    check vacuum source to the pb booster. Good luck!

    Comment

    • Patrick H.
      Beyond Control Poster
      • December 1, 1989
      • 11643

      #3
      Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

      Originally posted by Jimmy Blakely (3742)
      check vacuum source to the pb booster. Good luck!
      Still looks good, didn't change that at all. Even checked a bit inside when I removed the MC, and no issues visible.
      I can't think of any reason it would have changed.
      Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
      71 "deer modified" coupe
      72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
      2008 coupe
      Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

      Comment

      • Paul O.
        Frequent User
        • August 31, 1990
        • 1716

        #4
        Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

        Patrick

        The problems is different then when you started so would agree M/C problem. But many years ago had a 1973 P/B car replaced M/C and had a very stiff pedal and after a period of driving the brakes would lock up found the P/B rod in the booster as the problem had to readjust the length cured problem.

        Just thought of this check with the engine off depress the brake pedal several times till you have full resistance then start the engine pedal should move down and have a softer feel. If it does not bad booster or vacuum problems.
        Last edited by Paul O.; June 8, 2013, 09:30 PM. Reason: add

        Comment

        • Brian M.
          Extremely Frequent Poster
          • February 1, 1997
          • 1839

          #5
          Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

          Try disconnecting the Vac line to Powerbooster and reconnecting.

          Comment

          • Patrick H.
            Beyond Control Poster
            • December 1, 1989
            • 11643

            #6
            Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

            Originally posted by Paul Oslansky (18046)
            Patrick

            The problems is different then when you started so would agree M/C problem. But many years ago had a 1973 P/B car replaced M/C and had a very stiff pedal and after a period of driving the brakes would lock up found the P/B rod in the booster as the problem had to readjust the length cured problem.

            Just thought of this check with the engine off depress the brake pedal several times till you have full resistance then start the engine pedal should move down and have a softer feel. If it does not bad booster or vacuum problems.
            Paul,

            I'll give that a try, possibly tomorrow.
            I checked it out this evening briefly as I had to move the car. Compared to every other PB car I own the pedal just doesn't seem to go very far before it's hard as a rock.
            Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
            71 "deer modified" coupe
            72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
            2008 coupe
            Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

            Comment

            • Patrick H.
              Beyond Control Poster
              • December 1, 1989
              • 11643

              #7
              Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

              Originally posted by Brian McHale (28809)
              Try disconnecting the Vac line to Powerbooster and reconnecting.
              I had to remove it to power bleed it, so this has been done. I didn't see anything wrong with the vacuum line, though I will check it out further.
              Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
              71 "deer modified" coupe
              72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
              2008 coupe
              Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

              Comment

              • Terry M.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • September 30, 1980
                • 15600

                #8
                Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

                I chased this kind of issue on a friend's 1969 many years ago. Car had manual brakes. In the end we found he had a PB master cylinder installed by Bubba years before. Check diameter of MC -- I am pretty sure that can be done from the rear, but if it has the right casting # for PB only a machining foul up would cause this. BTW: The 1970 TIM&JG has the wrong PB MC casting #. The new 1968-69 has it right.
                Terry

                Comment

                • Dick W.
                  Former NCRS Director Region IV
                  • June 30, 1985
                  • 10483

                  #9
                  Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

                  Originally posted by Patrick Hulst (16386)
                  Paul,

                  I'll give that a try, possibly tomorrow.
                  I checked it out this evening briefly as I had to move the car. Compared to every other PB car I own the pedal just doesn't seem to go very far before it's hard as a rock.
                  You should have free play in the rod from the pedal, would not be the first time I have seen the issue. Do the brakes build up after you drive it for a while?
                  Dick Whittington

                  Comment

                  • Patrick H.
                    Beyond Control Poster
                    • December 1, 1989
                    • 11643

                    #10
                    Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

                    Originally posted by Dick Whittington (8804)
                    You should have free play in the rod from the pedal, would not be the first time I have seen the issue. Do the brakes build up after you drive it for a while?
                    No, they are hard from the moment the car starts.
                    You can push the pedal down somewhat, but it feels like it's about half of normal before you hit a brick wall with your foot.
                    Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
                    71 "deer modified" coupe
                    72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
                    2008 coupe
                    Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

                    Comment

                    • Dick W.
                      Former NCRS Director Region IV
                      • June 30, 1985
                      • 10483

                      #11
                      Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

                      Originally posted by Patrick Hulst (16386)
                      No, they are hard from the moment the car starts.
                      You can push the pedal down somewhat, but it feels like it's about half of normal before you hit a brick wall with your foot.
                      Reach up under the dash and take hold of the push rod. It should have some free movement in it. If not you have found your problem. Several years ago a customer brought me a car that he had taken to three or four other shops. He would drive it a few miles and then the brakes started getting hot. I had sold him a set of calipers several months before and he finally decided that all four calipers were bad and causing this. Started checking and found the push rod was tight. He finally admitted he had gone to AutoZone and purchase a M/C because the one we sold was too expensive. Needless to say he paid dearly for the money he saved on the M/C.
                      Dick Whittington

                      Comment

                      • Patrick H.
                        Beyond Control Poster
                        • December 1, 1989
                        • 11643

                        #12
                        Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

                        Originally posted by Dick Whittington (8804)
                        Reach up under the dash and take hold of the push rod. It should have some free movement in it. If not you have found your problem. Several years ago a customer brought me a car that he had taken to three or four other shops. He would drive it a few miles and then the brakes started getting hot. I had sold him a set of calipers several months before and he finally decided that all four calipers were bad and causing this. Started checking and found the push rod was tight. He finally admitted he had gone to AutoZone and purchase a M/C because the one we sold was too expensive. Needless to say he paid dearly for the money he saved on the M/C.
                        OK, I know what you're describing. I had a problem with my 70 Cutlass that was similar.
                        However, the pushrod in this car did not change, and the bore depth of the new MC mics out the same as the one I removed. So, the odds are low.
                        I checked the depth because I too wondered about a similar situation.
                        Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
                        71 "deer modified" coupe
                        72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
                        2008 coupe
                        Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

                        Comment

                        • Bob J.
                          Very Frequent User
                          • December 1, 1977
                          • 714

                          #13
                          Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

                          Originally posted by Paul Oslansky (18046)
                          Patrick


                          Just thought of this check with the engine off depress the brake pedal several times till you have full resistance then start the engine pedal should move down and have a softer feel. If it does not bad booster or vacuum problems.
                          I think this test would be the first one I would do. Bob

                          Comment

                          • Patrick H.
                            Beyond Control Poster
                            • December 1, 1989
                            • 11643

                            #14
                            Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

                            Originally posted by Paul Oslansky (18046)
                            Patrick

                            Just thought of this check with the engine off depress the brake pedal several times till you have full resistance then start the engine pedal should move down and have a softer feel. If it does not bad booster or vacuum problems.

                            Ding Ding! We have a winner.

                            I tried the test a couple of times. Pedal doesn't change when the car is started.
                            I then checked the vacuum line, and the engine is giving plenty of vacuum to the booster. Check valve is working.

                            Turned off car and I now hear a leaking vacuum hiss at the power brake booster - a noise that wasn't previously there.

                            Anyone know of a good brake booster rebuilder with quick turnaround?
                            Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
                            71 "deer modified" coupe
                            72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
                            2008 coupe
                            Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

                            Comment

                            • Dick W.
                              Former NCRS Director Region IV
                              • June 30, 1985
                              • 10483

                              #15
                              Re: Brake pedal too firm after new Master Cylinder installation

                              Originally posted by Patrick Hulst (16386)
                              Ding Ding! We have a winner.

                              I tried the test a couple of times. Pedal doesn't change when the car is started.
                              I then checked the vacuum line, and the engine is giving plenty of vacuum to the booster. Check valve is working.

                              Turned off car and I now hear a leaking vacuum hiss at the power brake booster - a noise that wasn't previously there.

                              Anyone know of a good brake booster rebuilder with quick turnaround?
                              Booster Dewey
                              Dick Whittington

                              Comment

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