Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

[Justin A.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

Disagree strongly here. Let it sit undisturbed.

I couldn't more strongly disagree with that. By starting the engine often and letting it come up to temp you keep everything working. You don't end up damaging things from letting them sit and rust. Engine bearings keep oil in them and everything stays at the ready. I have never seen an engine that sat for 10 years and just fired up. Once you actually get them started there are issues that have to be dealt with. However cars that are started often and properly warmed up have no issues like those that don't get started. We had a 93 anniv. with 4 yes (4) miles on it. I had the car when it was 15 years old and it had all sorts of issues from sitting. It had not been started since it was backed off the truck. It had fuel and coolant issues. Now the car still has four miles on it and it gets started and warmed up every month and if you really wanted to ruin the car you could get in it and go for a ride.
I have yet to be proved wrong on this in the hundreds of Corvettes we see each year. I had a customer with a 76 that had not been started in 10 year. Changed the oil, added fresh gas, had to buy a new carb and with all of that, the motor lasted about an hour before it spun a bearing. I also highly recommend adding a BG oil treatment as it treats the bearings.

Dot 5, you should have zero issues as long as you flush out all the dot 3 or 4 fluid out of the system.

[Terry M.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

I couldn't more strongly disagree with that. By starting the engine often and letting it come up to temp you keep everything working. You don't end up damaging things from letting them sit and rust. Engine bearings keep oil in them and everything stays at the ready. I have never seen an engine that sat for 10 years and just fired up. Once you actually get them started there are issues that have to be dealt with. However cars that are started often and properly warmed up have no issues like those that don't get started. We had a 93 anniv. with 4 yes (4) miles on it. I had the car when it was 15 years old and it had all sorts of issues from sitting. It had not been started since it was backed off the truck. It had fuel and coolant issues. Now the car still has four miles on it and it gets started and warmed up every month and if you really wanted to ruin the car you could get in it and go for a ride.
I have yet to be proved wrong on this in the hundreds of Corvettes we see each year. I had a customer with a 76 that had not been started in 10 year. Changed the oil, added fresh gas, had to buy a new carb and with all of that, the motor lasted about an hour before it spun a bearing. I also highly recommend adding a BG oil treatment as it treats the bearings.

Dot 5, you should have zero issues as long as you flush out all the dot 3 or 4 fluid out of the system.

Justin,
Please let us know how long your exhaust system lasts om your 1993 using your "storage" regimen.

[Justin A.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

Terry,
With all due respect because I am very familiar with who you are, but the exhaust on this car still looks new as with the rest of the car. With anything there is a right way and a wrong way. When you warm the car up the exhaust will also have to come up to temp to burn off the condensation in it, if not it will eventually rot the exhaust. If someone never plans to ever drive the car again, then I agree leave it alone, but that not what it was built for, it is nice to still see them running. The sound of an L88 is music, I would love to hear the ZL1 run again, and see it drive but I doubt I will. I just had an 84 with 120 miles on it last year that a customer purchased out of a museum, there were a laundry list of bad parts that had to be replaced from the coolant system to the fuel system all from sitting.
Justin
Zip Products

[Justin A.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

Since it was brought up with out details let me say this, If it were me and I was going to store a car I would drain all the fuel and back off all the rocker arms. If it was a distributor car I would remove that and install and pump primer and I would just prime the motor every 6 months or so. A 92 and later car would be more difficult to prime the oil, it can stil be done. If it was a low miled car I would have already removed and replace my coolant hoses so that my original part number hoses did not go bad from sitting with coolant in them. I would then fill the complete cooling system with 100% antifreeze. I would be willing to bet that car would fire right up when I was ready for it to start.

[Terry M.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

Terry,
With all due respect because I am very familiar with who you are, but the exhaust on this car still looks new as with the rest of the car. With anything there is a right way and a wrong way. When you warm the car up the exhaust will also have to come up to temp to burn off the condensation in it, if not it will eventually rot the exhaust. If someone never plans to ever drive the car again, then I agree leave it alone, but that not what it was built for, it is nice to still see them running. The sound of an L88 is music, I would love to hear the ZL1 run again, and see it drive but I doubt I will. I just had an 84 with 120 miles on it last year that a customer purchased out of a museum, there were a laundry list of bad parts that had to be replaced from the coolant system to the fuel system all from sitting.
Justin
Zip Products

Justin,
Thanks for the recognition, but that should carry no weight. I have been wrong in the past and I am sure I will be wrong in the future. We all learn from the discussion that takes place here.

I don't disagree with you that storage, even dry storage if that is really possible, is not good for many parts of a car. The challenge is to minimize the damage that storage inflicts on the car. I don't think starting and running the car, even for say a half hour or even longer, is good either. Now if you are saying you will drive it a couple of times a year for a half hour or more -- then I would support that. Driving the car will get the transmission and differential and suspension and tires and so on moving, and that is good.

The good thing is that I think we both understand that we are only custodians of the cars for a relatively short time. Our obligation is to leave the car with the minimum damage for the next custodian, unless we chose to use up the car for our own pleasure. As is always the case -- it is your car you can do what you want with it, as can I with mine.

This thread has come a long ways from the original subject.

[Dick W.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

Ray,

Thanks for the feedback. I had really hoped I would be able to use DOT 5. It does make me wonder what those who do use DOT 5 do in order to achieve that success. And I know there are some folks who love DOT 5 and swear by it. Different composition of the seals?

Gary

Had DOT 5 in Kermit since about 1985. Replaced calipers and M/C at the same time. Unless there is a problem today, there has been nothing touched, other than checking the fluid level, since then.

[Larry M.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

Not certain that another DOT 5 testimonial is needed, as the archives is full of them. However, I completely rebuilt the brake system on my 1967 car about twenty years ago (1995). Used DOT 5 fluid from Stainless Steel Brakes Company. No problems bleeding the brakes or braking problems since that time. Did flush the system a few years ago when I redid the rear trailing arms and had part of the brake system apart. The fluid was only slightly discolored at that time (front brakes only)......and was clear and moisture free throughout.

Most (all??) brake systems use EPR rubber elastomers. Silicone should be fine. It is possible that some manufacturers are experimenting with other rubber compounds, although I have not personally heard of this. White Post Restorations was the only place I know that recommended against DOT 5 in their brake component rebuilds. Not certain why.

FWIW. Larry


EDIT: A quick search through the latest Parker O-ring Handbook indicates EPR and EPDM rubbers are compatible with all DOT 3-4-5 brake fluids. This Parker book is the o-ring and chemical industry standard.

[Michael W.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

Since it was brought up with out details let me say this, If it were me and I was going to store a car I would drain all the fuel and back off all the rocker arms. If it was a distributor car I would remove that and install and pump primer and I would just prime the motor every 6 months or so. A 92 and later car would be more difficult to prime the oil, it can stil be done. If it was a low miled car I would have already removed and replace my coolant hoses so that my original part number hoses did not go bad from sitting with coolant in them. I would then fill the complete cooling system with 100% antifreeze. I would be willing to bet that car would fire right up when I was ready for it to start.

Sorry for the continued hi-jack, but the above might be appropriate for a car in veryy long term storage. For cars that get driven at least every six months or so, no special care is needed. Firing an engine up and letting it idle in a garage or driveway is unnecessary.

[Ray K.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

Terry, Gary,

I do not recall the brand of Dot 5 that I used, but I ordered it twice from Corvette Central. The master cylinder kits came from both Paragon and Chicago Corvette and they were all Raybestos kits. I have one master cylinder kit left. The first set of caliper seals were whatever Lone Star provided with the calipers. My next go round was OEM GM Delco kits for all the calipers. Finally, the last caliper seals came from my local Car Quest store. I took my calipers and measured the O.D of the outer seals to find the largest diameter seals to fit tight in the piston bores. I cleaned all the parts after each episode with denatured alcohol and flushed lines and hoses also.

I do not know why this situation developed and I, as you Terry, had read a number of reports and tech specs that indicated it would be to my advantage to use Dot 5 silicone fluid. Not to be.

Ray

[Richard M.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

I rebuilt my 69' calipers that had previously been sleeved, got my parts from Ken McCormick at Lonestar, I mentioned to
Ken I was planning on going back with Silicone Dot 5 he recommended against it. He explained that the Silicone manufactured
today is different than that made 20 years ago, because of government regs. the formula has been changed, only 2 plants
manufacture Dot 5 one in North America and one in Europe. Also he recommends the o-ring type seals and pistons for cars
that sit alot.

Richard

[Terry M.]

Re: Piston seals for 1st design brake calipers

Terry, Gary,

I do not recall the brand of Dot 5 that I used, but I ordered it twice from Corvette Central. The master cylinder kits came from both Paragon and Chicago Corvette and they were all Raybestos kits. I have one master cylinder kit left. The first set of caliper seals were whatever Lone Star provided with the calipers. My next go round was OEM GM Delco kits for all the calipers. Finally, the last caliper seals came from my local Car Quest store. I took my calipers and measured the O.D of the outer seals to find the largest diameter seals to fit tight in the piston bores. I cleaned all the parts after each episode with denatured alcohol and flushed lines and hoses also.

I do not know why this situation developed and I, as you Terry, had read a number of reports and tech specs that indicated it would be to my advantage to use Dot 5 silicone fluid. Not to be.

Ray

Ray,

I doubt this had anything to do with your poor experience with DOT 5, but I doubt denatured alcohol, or any kind of alcohol, would be a solvent for DOT 5. It is a fine solvent for DOT 3, 4 & 5.1 -- but if I wanted to clean something of DOT 5 I would go for the red can of Brake Clean, and try to find one this 1,1,1-Trichloroethane. It is getting harder and harder to get the 111 trichlor, but I have a lifetime supply of that stored away. None for sale.