67 -327 hard starting

[Timothy B.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

I thought the 4*ATDC is for the AIR cars. IMO, that setting would result in a hot (temperature) running car.

[Gerard F.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

Tim,

That's what my 67 service manual says for a 1111117 distributor for auto transmission. With 40d centrifugal advance it has to be 4d A initial to avoid detonation when all the centrifugal is in. And that could be below the 5100.

Al,

If it starts up fine when cold, and is only hard starting when hot, then the problem is probably fuel related. Also you probably don't need that racing fuel. My 327/300HP manual trans runs just great on 90 oct pump gas.
Maybe just give it a little more running time. I found that sometimes the carb gaskets and things within need to take a little set.

[Al R.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

Update Pulled distributor and moved it 1 notch to get the Vacuum can over nearer the center between intake runner and the coil bracket. looks like it could go another notch to center it as was mentioned. Anyway, set timing back on 4ATD and fiddled with air bleed screws on carb to get it to idle better. Ran RPMs up to points in the service manual with exception of the 5100rpms, it was within 2* at each of the 2 lower rpm ranges. Before I forget, the breakerless conversion system is made by Breakerless SE Single Wire Ignition and is part #38131 made by M & H Electric Fabricators in Calif. After several minutes of running, the engine picks up about 300RPMs by itself ???? any help on this? Also, about 6-7 minutes running, the temperature begins to go up toward 220* The radiator hose is real hard at this point and when the engine is cut off, it pushes a little coolant out the expansion tank. Is this the thermostat not opening up or possibly because I have not installed the hood and the fan is not pulling enough air thru the radiator? I have a quilt laying over the front of the nose extending over the top of the radiator to aide in cooling and pulling air thru the radiator. Doesn't seem to help. Any ideas on this? Again thanks for any suggestions. 327-300 Automatic with air conditioning. new radiator, professionally rebuilt fan clutch and water pump, new heater core, and hoses. 180*thermostat was replaced with a Stant brand. Help! TIA Al

[Gerard F.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

Al,

The more I think about your problem, and I'm no expert, I think it is fuel related. I hate to send you off on tangents, but it could be that you are getting just too much fuel down the carb when it heats up. Maybe too much fuel pressure (6 psi max on a 3810) or things heat up so much that you are just dripping fuel down intake manifold. That 4d advance distributor is also a suspect.

I had a similar problem on my 67/300/manual with a newly installed 3810 (refurbed by myself). When I took a hot run uphill to test it out, it would always heat up. Then I simply tightened the carb to manifold bolts and the problem went away.
Maybe you have a similar problem. Take a good run with it, forget the stationary idling BS. See what it does on a run, then address the problems.

[Robert K.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

Al,
I have re-read all your posts and I don't know what you mean "hard to restart". Is it spinning over fast and will not fire or is it spining over slow like the battery is dieing? You state 4ATD, what is ATD? I'm familiar with BTDC and ATDC but not ATD. Do you mean After Top Dead Center (ATDC). Then I think your timing is retarded and that is causing your overheating issue and maybe hard starting. Does it pop through the carb? If you timing is 4 BTDC, then I suspect the engine is spinning over slow and not starting when hot. I would retard the timing and it should fire up. I had one just like this years ago. When hot it would not start, I would retard the timing to get it to fire and then advance it again. It would overheat sitting still at an idle but would not go aboue 180 when driving. I decided that I needed more total advance in my distributer so I could set ititial advance conservatively so it would start but still run up to 8000 rpms. Never quite solved my problem I sold the car. Mine also was a fresh rebuild in which the rebuilder shot peaned the pistons and degreed in the cam. I thought it was possible one of these two things caused my problem, shot peaned pistons too tight or incorrect cam timing from being degreed in. Retarded timing will cause overheating. My problem was pick one from each column. Retarded timing causes overheating and advanced timing causes slow spinning over and hard starting.

Good luck

[John H.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

Al -

1. Need you to define EXACTLY what you mean by "hard starting" - what does it do or not do while you're trying to start it? What are you doing to start it? Does it just crank and crank until you release the key and then it starts, or what?? We need to know EXACTLY what is happening - it matters for diagnosing it.

2. I don't care what the service manual says - the correct initial timing for a 300hp Powerglide (without K-19 A.I.R.) is 6* BTDC @ 500-600 rpm with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged - that's where to set it.

[Al R.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

John, it cranks freely over & over until the key is released and then it will start most times. I tried Jerry F's method of mashing the accelerator to the floor once and releasing it, before trying to start it. This seems to help some. I have not tried or thought about re-tightening the carb to manifold nuts. I will do this when I return home tomorrow, also. John, I can reset the timing to 6* BTDC if you think it is worth a try. Do you think this could be the reason for heating?

[Gerard F.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

John,

You are correct (as usual). It is confusing in the 67 Service Manual, Distributor Specifications 14, in the way the distributors are listed. Reading it closely, the 1111117 distributor with 40d cent. advance and initial timing of 4d ATDC was only used on a 67 327/300 with both auto transmission and K19. 67 327/300 manual transmission cars with and without K19, and auto transmission cars without K19 used the 1111194 distributor with 30d cent. advance and 6d BTDC.

So the initial timing of 4d ATDC maybe Al's problem with overheating, it should be 6d BTDC

Sorry for the confusion I may have caused in an earlier post in this thread.

[Timothy B.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

Referencing post #12, if the engine starts when the key is released to the run position but will not start while cranking then get a test light and make sure there is power on the solenoid R terminal when cranking the starter. This power wire gives the ignition coil 12 volts for start when cranking the starter.

[Al R.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

John & Jerry, I will reset timing to 6*. Also, Tim, I will jack car up and check the voltage at the R terminal. BUT it looks now like it will be Sun. before I get the chance to do so. Too tired when I got in from TN today 6 hr drive and the wife and I have a 6 hr tactical/combat handgun training class on Sat plus 1'1/2 hr drive time each way. Will let u guys know what happens on Sun. PM Many thanks Al

[John H.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

Referencing post #12, if the engine starts when the key is released to the run position but will not start while cranking then get a test light and make sure there is power on the solenoid R terminal when cranking the starter. This power wire gives the ignition coil 12 volts for start when cranking the starter.

Tim & Al -

That's EXACTLY why I asked that question the way I did, and referred to it in post #2 much earlier. Engine start only at key release is the classic symptom of the coil not getting power while cranking, so circuit continuity has been lost between the starter solenoid "R" terminal and the coil (+) terminal. Find both ends of that pink wire and re-connect, and starting behavior should be normal; if not, the "R" terminal isn't getting power while cranking - a test light will show that in a second. No power there, repair the solenoid.

[William F.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

John's got the problem nailed down, as usual. Had similar problem. Problem was corrosion within solenoid. Replaced solenoid, got 12V to coil with key turned to "start" and problem solved.

[Al R.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

John, Checked the pink wire at the R terminal on the starter. With the key turned to ON, it shows 12.2 volts. When cranking the engine, it shows 5.4 volts - recently rebuilt starter with a new solenoid by John Pirkle. Would this still be the issue with the starting. BTW, I replaced the thermostat late this afternoon in an effort to eliminate this as an issue with overheating. I will allow it to sit overnight and crank it late tomorrow to see if this helps. I reset the timing to 6* BTDC and tried to get it to idle at 600 RPM, but it ran rough as though it is skipping. Ran a lot better at 7-750 RPM, but still seems to have a skip. I have new plug wires that I bought from LL back when I was buying parts for this restoration in the mid 90's and some time back read an article on this site about the date coded wires that LL sold being defective. I am considering buying another set of wires and installing them to eliminate the wires as an issue, too. I tried pulling the wires loose from the distributor cap 1 at a time to detect if any of them were bad, but as each was pulled, the engine stumbled as expected. I could not determine if 1 was bad by this method. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

[Al R.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

Also, I tried locating any vacuum leaks at the carb base and edges of the intake by spraying starting either while the engine was running, but could not detect any changes in engine speed or idling .

[William F.]

Re: 67 -327 hard starting

Is your vac advance connected and working? I assume you set initial timing with vac disconnected and then reconnect it after setting initial??