C1 (1960) Seat Issues

[Donald H.]

I can not get my seats together. This is a 1960 and I am hoping I don't have a mismatch of parts.

The seat bottoms and backs were restored/covered by Al Knoch.

I'm having a big problem getting the backs and bottoms poistioned on the seat frames correctly. Each of them seem to fit the frames individually OK (with exception noted below about the bottom), I just can't get them on together. I believe the back needs to be installed first then the bottom forced in and back until it snaps over the frame. I was sort of successful on the passenger side, but the front edge of the bottom interferes with the adjuster handle, i.e. the bottom needs to go back further. I can't get the driver side together at all. With the back in place, I can not get the bottom in.

I'm wondering if I have a mismatch of parts?

Can someone tell me if there is a difference in the seat frames between a 60 and 61/62? If so, what is the difference?

Is there a difference with the seat bottom and or back frames between 60 and 61/62? Since I sent my seat bottoms and back to Al Knoch for covering and they covered as 1960, I assume they would have called back if there had been an issue with the seat bottom/back frames, but maybe a bad assumption on my part!!!!

Two picture attached, one of the frame and one showing the covered bottom frame sitting in the seat frame in what I believe is the correct position. One thing I noticed is that with the bottom frame in the seat frame and pushed back to where I think it should be with the back of the seat frame where the spring cage drops down positioned tight against the seat frame. There is a gap in the front shown between the tips of the red arrows in the picture where the spring cage drops down in the front. This is where I believe the seat frame should fit tight inside the seat frame, I.e. snap in tightly when assembled. Sorry for the jumbled description.

This is going to be a real bummer is I have mismatched stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks,

Don



Seat Frame.jpgSeat Bottom.jpg

[Donald H.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

I was able to answer some of my own questions. Went to Ebay and see some 61/62 bottom and back frames. So I definitely do not have 61/62 bottom or back frames, there are obvious differences. So mine much be correct.

I was also able to find a listing for the base seat frames for sell listed as being 56-60, and they look like mine, so if the Ebay ad is correct, mine must be correct for 1960.

I would still like some confirmation from someone out there who knows for sure.

Don

[Joe M.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

Donald, after my 1960 seats came back from Al Knoch, I had trouble getting the bottom and back to slip into place. They binding point was at the back where the back of the bottom cushion meets the bottom of the back cushion. The thickness of the new foam, bottom and back, makes it difficult to make them fit into the frame. I installed the back cushion first. Make sure the two steel tabs at the bottom of the back frame are bent down so they don't interfere with the back dropping down into place. Then put the bottom cushion in place and take both hands to the front of the bottom seat cushion and use your fists to pound the bottom cushion back first, then down. Eventually, the foam pieces will compress and it will get easier. After 2 years, I still have some difficulty getting the driver side bottom cushion in place. I hope my description makes sense.

I assume your seat frames don't have the manufacture's paper tag with part number. My frames still had the paper tags on bottom and back frames. My frames were made in 1958.

[Donald H.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

Donald, after my 1960 seats came back from Al Knoch, I had trouble getting the bottom and back to slip into place. They binding point was at the back where the back of the bottom cushion meets the bottom of the back cushion. The thickness of the new foam, bottom and back, makes it difficult to make them fit into the frame. I installed the back cushion first. Make sure the two steel tabs at the bottom of the back frame are bent down so they don't interfere with the back dropping down into place. Then put the bottom cushion in place and take both hands to the front of the bottom seat cushion and use your fists to pound the bottom cushion back first, then down. Eventually, the foam pieces will compress and it will get easier. After 2 years, I still have some difficulty getting the driver side bottom cushion in place. I hope my description makes sense.

I assume your seat frames don't have the manufacture's paper tag with part number. My frames still had the paper tags on bottom and back frames. My frames were made in 1958.

Thanks Joe, your description of what you encountered is pretty much what I have found.

Actually some of the frames still had the tags, I removed them before I sent the seats to Knoch, then proceeded to loose them.

When you have time could you please check one thing for me on your seat backs. I assume the backs fit with the tab on the back (that fits over the frame) all the way down against the frame horizontal. I'm not describing it very well, so I attaced a picture. I have assumed that the tabs marked by the blue arrows need to fit down against the rail as pictured then the bottom tabs are bent over to retain the backs. Unfortunately I broke one of the bottom bend tabs and one other is about to go, so I'm have to come up with some other mechanism to hold the back down and to the frame.

Thanks again, by the way Happy Thanksgiving

[Donald H.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

Joe, also does you seat adjuster lever rub against the front of you bottom cushions? That's also where I'm have a problem.

Don

[Joe M.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

Don, I don't see a photo. The adjustment lever is very close to the front edge of my seat bottom. When I remove/replace the seat bottom, I always have to look at the fit and make sure that I have the seat bottom pushed back and down as far as it will go or it will rub on the adjustor handle. The seat back loops slide down over the back frame all the way down, but with new foam, the back will tend to raise up some when you install the seat bottom. The bendable tabs wrap over the top of the bottom loops to keep the back in position. I am surpised that my tabs are all still intact as many times as I have bent them up and down.

I don't have any space between the top of the seat back and the underside of the deck lid. It is my understanding that the original configuration was such that there was some space in this area so the seat would slide back and forth unimpeded. I assume the Al Knoch back foam is too thick in this area.

[Donald H.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

Woops! here's the picture I meant to attach. It is with the back tabs/retainers that fit over the back of the seat frame all the way down and touching the horizontal rail on the seat frame. With mine in this position there is some clearance between the seat back and the deck lid, but not much.

I'll just have to keep working on them to hopefully get them to fit better.


Don

Seat back.jpg

[Joe M.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

The back is in the proper position. The problem is the new foam thickness. It will be very difficult for a while to get the bottom cushion pushed back and down until the foam gets flatter. Pop the front of the seat cushion with both fists back and down at the same time and it will jam it back and into position in the bottom seat frame. Good luck.

[Richard M.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

Don,

Just checkin'......to be sure, you know there are lefts and rights to each of the 4 cushions right? The backrests are widest at the glove box side. The seat cushions have a wider area of the frame where it mates to the outer track.

The reason your adjusting lever may be too close to the frame......You need spacer washers between the track and L-frame to raise the L-frame away from the track. It's shown in the AIM but not very clear. I had 4 washers at the fronts of each track on this one, apx 1/4" total thickness. IIRC the AIM shows washers at all 4 track mount bolts but you really only need at the fronts to get the lever away from the seat.

Joe is right. Too much foam at the mating joints of both cushions will cause problems. I just went through this on the '59 I had here. Local shop did new AK covers and added foam where it shouldn't be. I just barely got the Pass side to fit. The Driver side was impossible. Had to remove some foam.

Your backrest cushion is okay in your photo. However, with extra foam, and broken lower frame tabs, the backrest will try to ride upward when you install the seat cushion. You really need the lower tabs to catch the backrest frame so it doesn't raise.

When I install the seat..........Hopefully you can picture this, I lay it in position, then I get in and sit on it. Using both hands on both sides of my legs, I reach under and grab the L-frame underneath with my fingers and push the seat-cushion rearward with may palms into the L-frame until it drops down to catch the lip.

Rich

[Joe M.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

I do the same thing Rich described by sitting in the seat, but I couldn't figure out how to describe it accurately. Do what he described. I would think that you could braze the broken tabs back on to the seat back frame.

[Donald H.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

Don,

Just checkin'......to be sure, you know there are lefts and rights to each of the 4 cushions right? The backrests are widest at the glove box side. The seat cushions have a wider area of the frame where it mates to the outer track.

The reason your adjusting lever may be too close to the frame......You need spacer washers between the track and L-frame to raise the L-frame away from the track. It's shown in the AIM but not very clear. I had 4 washers at the fronts of each track on this one, apx 1/4" total thickness. IIRC the AIM shows washers at all 4 track mount bolts but you really only need at the fronts to get the lever away from the seat.

Joe is right. Too much foam at the mating joints of both cushions will cause problems. I just went through this on the '59 I had here. Local shop did new AK covers and added foam where it shouldn't be. I just barely got the Pass side to fit. The Driver side was impossible. Had to remove some foam.

Your backrest cushion is okay in your photo. However, with extra foam, and broken lower frame tabs, the backrest will try to ride upward when you install the seat cushion. You really need the lower tabs to catch the backrest frame so it doesn't raise.

When I install the seat..........Hopefully you can picture this, I lay it in position, then I get in and sit on it. Using both hands on both sides of my legs, I reach under and grab the L-frame underneath with my fingers and push the seat-cushion rearward with may palms into the L-frame until it drops down to catch the lip.

Rich

yes, I did see the washers in the AIM and added two under each location. I'll go back and add a couple more under the front, at least on the driver side which I have out. I may just leave the passenger side alone as it is in with cushions in place, so I may leave it alone. I need to work on getting it further back so the adjuster will work better though.

You always have good tips, and I will definitely try them.

thanks,
Dn

[Donald H.]

Re: C1 (1960) Seat Issues

Joe and Rich,

I got my seats together and in. The look very good now. I sort of did everything backwards to get the fit I wanted. I installed the cushion frames to the seat frame outside the car. I installed the backs and closed the retainers to keep them down and tight. I then installed the bottoms. I used a block of wood between the front seat frame crossmember and the seat frame to force the seat bottom back tight to the seat backs. It was so tight I had to use a pry bar to get them together.

Then the fun part - with the seats fully assembled I installed them in the car. Very hard to do to bolt the seat frame to the underbody mounts with the cushions installed but I managed to get all of them in and tight.

I now have good clearance between the top of the seat backs and the deck lid, and I have decent clearance between the seat bottoms and the seat adjuster lever.

Thanks for your inputs,

Don