C5 Judging

[Frank E.]

Was at a chapter meet this weekend and heard that work on the judging guides for the C5's has been stopped and probably won't be completed. Can anyone confirm this for me? Does anyone know the future plans for the C5's?


Thanks....

[Vinnie P.]

Re: C5 Judging

Frank...summer issue of The Restorer, National Judging Chairman, Roy Sinor addressed the C5 judging...it's on hold.

[Frank E.]

Re: C5 Judging

Got it.... Thanks Vinnie for pointing me to Roy's paragraph. Is there a timeline for a decision on what will be done for these cars? Say within a year, two years, etc.....? It seems to me that these cars are becoming much more affordable to younger enthusiasts as compared to the C1, C2 or C3 market and would provide a way to entice the younger crowd to get envolved in NCRS. A "ballpark" timeframe is better than just leaving it as "suspended" with a wait and see implication....


Thanks.....

[Patrick H.]

Re: C5 Judging

Frank,

From what I heard at the last Regional there are enough issues getting judges and getting C4 manuals correct to think about adding a new layer on top.
That was the latest gossip at Altoona.

Patrick

[Mike E.]

[Dave P.]

Re: C5 Judging

IMO, the indefinite postponement of the inclusion of the C5 in NCRS Judging is a very wise decision. The oldest C5 is just too damn new. The NCRS high awards are diluted and diminished by giving them to "used cars". Even some of the C4 we DO judge are too new, IMO. I wonder how a midyear Duntov owner who's spent 100K on his restoration and achievement feels about a guy that buys a 96 of a car lot, washes and waxes it, and after entering a couple of events, gets the equivalent (97.0 or better) award? Adding the 250,000+ C5's over the next 4-5 years would really dilute the spirit of the NCRS restorations and preservation of the truly vintage and historically-significant Corvettes we already judge.

As far as C5's being "affordable" to younger entry-level members. So are C4's. There are plenty of sub-$10,000 "Insta-McClellan/Hill" C4's out there that with a wash and wax will get a 97.0. Certainly a Top Flight, first time out. C5's are too new, and there's too many of them. They would dilute the real impetuous of NCRS Awards: to add value to midyears and big block C3's.

If you want a "used car inspection" for a C5, take it to the local mechanic and have him check it out. That's what a "judging" of a 15 year old car amounts to. I'm glad the C5 is on hold. And probably should be until they're at least 20 years old, and the population of C5's has thinned a bit. A Hill Award should be "hard". Like a Duntov for a midyear is hard. Too many used C5's sitting on car lots are Hill Award as they are. That's not hard enough to be credible among recipients of other NCRS High Award owners with earlier cars.

[Joseph K.]

Re: C5 Judging

On hold is ok and understandable, but it may take five years to come up with a manual considering the complexity and the donated time by a member to compile the document. just a thought.

[Frank E.]

Re: C5 Judging

Thanks for the input. I couldn't argue against any of the points all of you have made. I'm just concerned about the aging membership of NCRS and I still think that the C5's are an affordable portal for the younger generation to use to get into the hobby. I hope Roy keeps this on the front burner so that this project isn't shelved indefinitely. Hopefully, something will be done to recognize these cars that IS difficult to achieve for an owner.

Thanks for your input....

[Pat M.]

Re: C5 Judging

A Hill Award should be "hard". Like a Duntov for a midyear is hard.

Dave I'm curious as to why you feel this way. It is true that most C4s and C5s were made and treated far better than older Vettes but so what? If part of our organization's goal is for the preservation of Corvettes, isn't this a good thing we should celebrate? Where is it written that getting the Hill award (or the Duntov award for that matter) should be "hard", or that there shouldn't be too many of them? The standard is the standard, and I don't think younger Vettes should be punished because they may have had an "easier" time adhering to it. JHMO

[Rick A.]

Re: C5 Judging

While most of the posts provide invaluable information, the one point not addressed was the why and the when. Well, the when will need to be answered by Roy and the BoD. The why is pretty simple beyond what Dave mentioned and the sheer numbers that would be available to be judged. The C5's are just TOO CLOSE to the ground to judge chassis! And, to force a Chapter to find a lift to judge a C5 from an insurance perspective is pretty much cost prohibitive. Just my $.02 centavos.

[Mike E.]

Re: C5 Judging

For many of us, C1 and C2 cars are getting more difficult to judge underneath. Or is it the becoming vertical again that is even more difficult?!?

[Michael W.]

Re: C5 Judging

They would dilute the real impetuous of NCRS Awards: to add value to midyears and big block C3's.

I guess I'm still having a hard time accepting that this is the impetus of why people want to get an NCRS award. If true, the cost of getting the award should rise accordingly with the car owner paying 100% of the expenses involved for the event, instead of the present system where all the event attendees subsidize the award.

[John D.]

Re: C5 Judging

Lets say Roy or no one else said anything about NCRS Judging C5's. I think if we use some common sense here gang what it boils down to is this.
Judging a C5 would be a nightmare. Imagine have a sold out C5 class at a Regional. The show would be over and guys would still be judging them as they are so complex. Would take much more than judging schools to learn how to judge one of those cars. One would have to be trained by GM just to understand some of the basics on those cars. I think if we did attempt to judge C5's we would be way in over our heads. Big time.
Now I did in fact read Roy's comments and agree with him 100%.
I cannot imagine holding a chapter judging school for judging 1997 up C5's.
The Pittsburgh chapter was the first NCRS judging to hold a judging school for C4's. My long lost May 83 car was used at that school. It was also used in writing the first C4 manual. Enthusiam was surprisingly high that day. Members that usually only like C1 and C2 were interested in judging a C4's that day long ago.
But I don't think our old gang would come out to learn how to judge C5's. Now I could be wrong on this but just for fun I will run a poll asking our membership if they would be interested in learning how to judge C5's. Maybe other chapters will follow suite and I betcha it would as dead issue at least for this generation.

This generation is the key word. As a founding member of the Pittsburgh chapter and a member who is highly involved with the chapter (and not one that just pays dues) I am worried about the future. The chapter is my life you know. The members are my dear friends, my pals, but the majority of them/us
are 70 or so. We can't seem to get much of the younger gang interested in squat let alone judge 1997 up Corvettes. True story for sure. JD

[Patrick H.]

Re: C5 Judging

I still think that the C5's are an affordable portal for the younger generation to use to get into the hobby. I hope Roy keep s this on the front burner so that this project isn't shelved indefinitely. Hopefully, something will be done to recognize these cars that IS difficult to achieve for an owner.

Thanks for your input....

The thought about affordable cars, younger members and the C4 generation was tossed about before the C4s were admitted. I don't think it has worked at all.

Patrick

[Paul O.]

Re: C5 Judging

Just a few thoughts about this subject. I do Chassis on C3 Corvettes and with that 69 sidepipe cars with a good mirror and light all can be seen a C5 could be done. Second we are doing C4 cars and if you really look at complexity the C4 they are the most complex Corvettes ever made even when compared to C5 or C6. For someone having a C4 especially a later model judged is at this time the most difficult in my opinion to pass Operations with out losing any points plus finding spare parts, exhaust systems and tires is no easy task. The time need to do just an Operations check of a 1996 Corvette is extensive. The man hours needed to fix the existing judging guides that at this time are filled with errors is and should be the primary focus before we as an organization add a new group of cars. Just my 2 cents.