Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

[Al R.]

I have a 59 with a 519 block, which like Wayne Womble stated in another post, I can't get the rings to seat. An old timer that worked at a local chev dealership told me several years back that some blocks in new cars back then were so hard that the rings would never seat and they ended up replacing the engines most times. He said they went so far as shaking "Bon-Ami" into the carburetor to try to seat the valves. Another option tried was to block off the radiator with cardboard and run the engine hot. These worked occassionally according to his memory. These are things I would not want to try on an original FI block. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to try? different rings, resleeve the block (very expense option) Open for suggestions as I currently have the engine at the machine shop/rebuilder.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

I have a 59 with a 519 block, which like Wayne Womble stated in another post, I can't get the rings to seat. An old timer that worked at a local chev dealership told me several years back that some blocks in new cars back then were so hard that the rings would never seat and they ended up replacing the engines most times. He said they went so far as shaking "Bon-Ami" into the carburetor to try to seat the valves. Another option tried was to block off the radiator with cardboard and run the engine hot. These worked occassionally according to his memory. These are things I would not want to try on an original FI block. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to try? different rings, resleeve the block (very expense option) Open for suggestions as I currently have the engine at the machine shop/rebuilder.

most break in problems come from the fact people don't run the engine hard enough during break in. if you don't feel good doing that have it broken in using a engine dyno with a good operator. if the shop uses the proper honing technique and the proper ring set there should be no problem

[John F.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

Sounds like a bunch of hogwash to me. Stick with the basics, good block, proper honing of cylinders, and good set of rings and pistons. Hopefully Tom or Duke will chime in.

[Joe L.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

I have a 59 with a 519 block, which like Wayne Womble stated in another post, I can't get the rings to seat. An old timer that worked at a local chev dealership told me several years back that some blocks in new cars back then were so hard that the rings would never seat and they ended up replacing the engines most times. He said they went so far as shaking "Bon-Ami" into the carburetor to try to seat the valves. Another option tried was to block off the radiator with cardboard and run the engine hot. These worked occassionally according to his memory. These are things I would not want to try on an original FI block. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to try? different rings, resleeve the block (very expense option) Open for suggestions as I currently have the engine at the machine shop/rebuilder.

Al-----


How do you know the rings have not seated?

[Bruce B.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

Al,
Be sure not to use synthetic oil or the rings will never seat.

[John H.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

Some rings took a LONG time to seat in the old days due to the old chrome rings. Modern ductile-iron rings with moly faces seat in about five minutes IF the bores are properly honed following the ring manufacturer's instructions to the letter. We built the Viper V-10 engine from scratch in the Viper assembly plant, right across the aisle from the install point on the Chassis Line, and the rings were seated when the chassis left the roll-test booth.


RollTest.JPG

[Duke W.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

Ring seating is more of a ring technology issue than block hardness issue. Up through sometime circa 1970 OE rings had a chrome plated top ring. These were slow to break in, but they had very good abrasion resistance.

Molydenum coated top rings became the norm in the seventies. They break in fast. They don't have the abrasion resistance of a chrome top ring, but with the 10 micron filtration technology that came into being in the late sixties abrasion resistance isn't an issue.

Those foam air filters of the era could not filter out much smaller than a humming bird!

Also, the final hone procedure is different for chrome and moly rings.

So what have you got?

Duke

[Al R.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

Joe, it would smoke continuously, mostly during start-up and would use roughly around a quart of oil per 600-700 miles as I recall. I had the engine rebuilder replace the rings in it at his expense and after it continued, I even took it to another rebuilder/machine shop. He rehoned the cylinders and installed chrome-moly rings with the same results. I gave up on it and installed a 327-300 in it back in the mid 90s so I could drive it in parades without suffocating the groups behind me. I am gonna give it 1 more try. Just looking for suggestions to remedy the oil consumption and ring seating.

[Joe L.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

Joe, it would smoke continuously, mostly during start-up and would use roughly around a quart of oil per 600-700 miles as I recall. I had the engine rebuilder replace the rings in it at his expense and after it continued, I even took it to another rebuilder/machine shop. He rehoned the cylinders and installed chrome-moly rings with the same results. I gave up on it and installed a 327-300 in it back in the mid 90s so I could drive it in parades without suffocating the groups behind me. I am gonna give it 1 more try. Just looking for suggestions to remedy the oil consumption and ring seating.

Al------


I don't think your problem has anything to do with ring seating. I would much more expect a problem with oil being drawn into ports from the lifter valley due to improper mating of the intake manifold to cylinder head. It could also be inlet valve guides or some problem with the crankcase ventilation system.

[Al R.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

Duke, the rebuilder told me he used chrome moly rings, not sure how the honing process was done. Are the type of rings different now than the mid 90s type?

[Duke W.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

They have to be either chrome or moly, not both. These terms refer to the plating process on the top ring. The second ring is alway plain cast iron because it doesn't see much gas pressure that forces the ring to the wall during the combustion stroke, assuming the top ring has a good seal.

Most current replacement rings are moly. Chrome is probably still available, but rarely used. Sprint cars guys traditionally liked chrome rings because they ran unfiltered on dirt tracks, and the excellent abrasion resistance of the chrome top ring helped maintain the seal in the dirty environment.

The norm for rroad engine ebuilts, today, is moly.

As Joe said the inlet manifold seal could be the culprit, and it could also be valve guides/seals. What was done there?

Duke

[Al R.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

The valve guides were knurled, not replaced at the time, if memory is correct. The original seats were used. Should hardened seats be installed now? How about valve guides- should new ones be pressed in, if possible? And of course, new seals were put on the valve stems. I know it's hard to say on these questions w/o seeing the heads, I'm just throwing it out here for guidance when I talk with the machine shop. I originally had the rebuilt FI unit on the car during the 1st 2 attempts and used a cast iron intake w/ holley on the 3rd attempt. Still, I suppose an improper seal could have occurred as the heads were milled to insure they were flat. They were also going to mill them again this time. Suggestions on this. Would there be a vaccum leak present if the intake isn't sealing to the heads properly (how to tell?). The can is present inside the lifter valley and the road draft tube was installed. Seems as I remember a small amount of oil residue insude the draft tube,also. I thought this would be normal, though.

[Al R.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

I forgot to mention there is a heavy residue of burned oil on top of the pistons and every spark plug was gummed up with oil crud

[Joe L.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

The valve guides were knurled, not replaced at the time, if memory is correct. The original seats were used. Should hardened seats be installed now? How about valve guides- should new ones be pressed in, if possible? And of course, new seals were put on the valve stems. I know it's hard to say on these questions w/o seeing the heads, I'm just throwing it out here for guidance when I talk with the machine shop. I originally had the rebuilt FI unit on the car during the 1st 2 attempts and used a cast iron intake w/ holley on the 3rd attempt. Still, I suppose an improper seal could have occurred as the heads were milled to insure they were flat. They were also going to mill them again this time. Suggestions on this. Would there be a vaccum leak present if the intake isn't sealing to the heads properly (how to tell?). The can is present inside the lifter valley and the road draft tube was installed. Seems as I remember a small amount of oil residue insude the draft tube,also. I thought this would be normal, though.

Al-----


You don't need hardened seats. In any event, the lack of them would have no effect on oil consumption.

I much prefer new guides to knurled. However, if new seals were installed the guides or seals are probably not the source of the oil problem.

Look at the back surface of the intake valves. If they are heavily encrusted with oil and/or carbon build-up, that pretty much tells you that the oil problem is originating from the TOP of the engine and not the bottom end (rings).

[Al R.]

Re: Hardness of engine blocks. Ring seating?

Thanks Joe, I'll go by the shop Wed. on my way back in from Tn. and look them over. Any suggestions on the best way to seal if this is the case? Would this be a case of the heads being milled too much to allow a proper seal to either of the 2 intakes I used?