Gasoline Quality

[Duke W.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

i have sunoco bulk plant near me,the gasoline is underground pipe lined into storage tanks,and i have been told by the truck drivers that the ethanol is tank trucked in to be blended with the gasoline.

Ethanol cannot be shipped via pipeline because pipelines all have water and ethanol will readily absorb water. The ethanol is blended with gasoline in the tank truck at the distribution point for delivery to the retailer.

How does the ethanol get to this distribution point... why do you think Warren Buffet bought the BNSF railroad?

Duke

[Joe L.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

As previously stated, MTBE was banned several years ago, and circa 2006 Congress passed an act that has increasing requirements over the years for oxygenates from "renewable resources", and ethanol is the only game in town. Recall that at this time Republicans controlled both houses of Congress and the White House. So much for Republicans!

Right now along the Southern California coastal areas regular unleaded is about four bucks a gallon. Of this about 65 cents is federal and state excise tax and state/local sales tax. Further, I estimate that the restricted recipe for California's "reformulated gasoline", which includes 10 percent ethanol adds about another half a buck a gallon to what the refineries could produce using the most cost effective components to achieve current octane, detergency, oxidation/gum formation resistance, storage life, and other technical specifications.

The California Air Resources Board claims that RFG reduces emissions by up to 20 percent, but industry technical professionals I have talked to say that's pure BS for any car with an O2 sensor and three way catalyst, which includes nearly all cars built in the last 30 years!

For sure the reduced mid range boiling characterisitics of all E10 blends dramatically increases evaporative emissions from vintage cars with carburetors or Rochester FI, not to mention the driveablility issues.

I've never been a subscriber to the "big oil conspiracy". Lubricant standards are established by the API, which includes the auto manufacturers and oil industry. The auto manufactures drive the standards within the technology and cost limitations that exist in the refining industry.

Gasoline standards are primarily set by government with little or no cost impact analysis, and the refining industry has had to invest about $100 billion in the last 10-15 years to meet all these government imposed regulations.

I'll trust oil industry technical professionals versus govenment bureaucrats, most of whom are tree hugging Luddites or technical morons, any day of the week. I know who states the facts versus who spins it all for political reasons.

I just shake my head evertime there is a big outcry over "excess" oil industry profits. Big oil is primarily about crude oil exploration and extraction, so when crude prices are high, which are driven by free market supply and demand, they make a good profit - about 10 cents on each sales dollar. So when you hear that ExxonMobil made a whopping $10 billion in the last quarter, you'll have to look up their revenue because the drive-by media will never tell you that was $10 billion on $100 billion of revenue, and, further, that they paid out $3 billion in dividends and will invest the remaining $7 billion in exploration and other capital expenditures, many of which are driven by government regulations.

Despite the ridiculous compensation packages that many of their senior executives receive, it's just a drop in the bucket that only the shareholders need be concerned about.

And don't forget that there have been several congressional investigations over "price fixing" by big oil in the last couple of decades - usually when Democrats are in power - but none ever found a shred of credible evidence.

Apple Computer makes about 40 cents on the sales dollar, but nobody ever bitches about that. In fact they line up overnight to be the first to pay an inflated price for some new gadget with a bunch of bells and whistles that most will never use. If all the iphones and ipads and i-whatever stopped working tomorrow, most people could get by with no more than a little inconvenience. If gasoline stopped flowing tomorrow, we'd all be in deep yogurt!

If you want to get an appreciation for the RISK inherent in big oil, and how they serve us as consumers, pick up a copy of Steve Coll's, Private Empire: ExxonMoblie and American Power published earlier this year although take the last chapter where he gets into "global warming" with a grain of salt.

You can probably find a copy in your local library. It gave me a new appreciation for the risks that big oil takes to keep the oil flowing, and I can say for sure that I have more trust and respect for "big oil" than I do for "big government".

Duke

Duke-----

When MTBE was used as the oxygenate in gasoline everyone clamored about all the problems it was creating with their engines and fuel systems. I said it was the lesser of the evils and, as far as I was concerned, really caused no problems, at all. I would still much rather have gasoline with MTBE and not ethanol. Here in California, for all practical purposes there's no non-avgas without ethanol to be found.

I hear folks talking about "pure gasoline". Of course, gasoline is not a compound, it's a mixture of hydrocarbon compounds. The mixture has varied widely over the years that gasoline has been around.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

Duke-----

When MTBE was used as the oxygenate in gasoline everyone clamored about all the problems it was creating with their engines and fuel systems. I said it was the lesser of the evils and, as far as I was concerned, really caused no problems, at all. I would still much rather have gasoline with MTBE and not ethanol. Here in California, for all practical purposes there's no non-avgas without ethanol to be found.

I hear folks talking about "pure gasoline". Of course, gasoline is not a compound, it's a mixture of hydrocarbon compounds. The mixture has varied widely over the years that gasoline has been around.

MTBE was found in the ground water so that is why it was done away with.

[Joe L.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

MTBE was found in the ground water so that is why it was done away with.

clem-----


Yes, that's why it was banned but I've always wondered if the ethanol industry was behind it. There are LOTS of things found in groundwater that don't belong there.

[Duke W.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

Duke-----

When MTBE was used as the oxygenate in gasoline everyone clamored about all the problems it was creating with their engines and fuel systems. I said it was the lesser of the evils and, as far as I was concerned, really caused no problems, at all. I would still much rather have gasoline with MTBE and not ethanol. Here in California, for all practical purposes there's no non-avgas without ethanol to be found.

I hear folks talking about "pure gasoline". Of course, gasoline is not a compound, it's a mixture of hydrocarbon compounds. The mixture has varied widely over the years that gasoline has been around.

I agree. When the oxygenate requirement went into effect in the mid-nineties I was much happier to see MTBE used in California I was concerned about ethanol's affect on water absorbtion and long term corrosion. It was the refiners' choice, and I figure that investing to produce MTBE in the long run was cheaper than shipping in ethanol in railroad tank cars from the Midwest, but whatever was not depreciated in that billion-plus dollar investment had to be written off after ten years. At the time I did not realize the deleterious affect that ethanol would have on the mid range distillation curve, and I don't think MTBE was as bad in that regard.

Recently I read some technically credible information claiming that water absorbed in E10 is not corrosive unless enough is absorbed to cause the ethanol-water mix to drop out of solution, but I'm still not completely convinced.

I also agree that if MTBE was found in groundwater, other gasoline components would be too, but only MTBE was mentioned. I smelled a rat!

Groundwater contamination from leaking underground fuel tanks has always been an issue, and you probably recall that about 15 years ago, all California gas stations were given 10 years to replace all their old steel tanks with non-metallic tanks or they would have to close. These new corrosion resistant tanks should go a long way in reducing leakage of fuel components.

Duke

[Paul J.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

clem-----


Yes, that's why it was banned but I've always wondered if the ethanol industry was behind it. There are LOTS of things found in groundwater that don't belong there.

Interesting point. The EPA could'nt establish a severe health risk for MTBE in thier studies in the late 90's, but the tree huggers need'nt worry, in 2000, 60 minutes and the water filtration companies kept the pressure on until something was done in 2006. All for naught. In the late 1990's all underground storage tanks and lines were subject to new regulations which require leak detection systems, and either double wall contruction or cathodic protection. The leaks that were the problems no longer occur. The only issues are spills, which occur infrequently and cleaned up quickly.

No one stopped to think that you could'nt tolerate to drink turpentine tasting water in the enough quantities to induce cancer. You'd throw up before very much was ingested. The only studies that I've seen that establish a cancer risk are three Italian studies, although there are probably more now. However, it does'nt matter, even if we could still use it we would not be exposed to it.

If anyone is interested, MTBE does not break down under oxidation in the soil and ground water, like gasoline and other pertroleum products. It is generally heavy and will move to the groundwater and flow with it. Consequently, groundwater clean up methodologies must be mechanical involving pumping, air stripping, or chemical breakdown. While natural attenuation is not an option, dilution in areas of high groundwater flow or a spring can be sometimes be used for treatment.

Paul

[Terry M.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

Groundwater contamination from leaking underground fuel tanks has always been an issue, and you probably recall that about 15 years ago, all California gas stations were given 10 years to replace all their old steel tanks with non-metallic tanks or they would have to close. These new corrosion resistant tanks should go a long way in reducing leakage of fuel components.

Duke

Duke, it wasn't just California, but I understand you are speaking from your perspective.
Illinois did the same thing (and there was a money pool established to help pay the service station operators to change their tanks, and all sorts of political mechanization went on.). I expect many/most states ordered replacement of the metal tanks around the same time. What aroused my curiosity is that it appeared the new tanks were fiberglass. Unless they are internally coated with something, we know that gasoline, especially with ethanol added, deteriorates fiberglass tanks. How long will these new tanks last before we see this whole boondoggle repeat itself? I don't think we need to debate who will pay, again, and again, and again.

[Duke W.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

So it must have been an EPA requirement, not just California.

I previously refered to the new tanks as "non-metallic". I recall seeing some as they were being installed, and they were beige/light brown with large ribs and a wavy surface. They definitely looked like "fiberglass", but I was never sure of the exact material.

And, yes, will ethanol-laced gasoline deteriorate them? Was the material thoroughly tested? Time will tell.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

If anyone is interested, MTBE does not break down under oxidation in the soil and ground water, like gasoline and other pertroleum products. It is generally heavy and will move to the groundwater and flow with it. Consequently, groundwater clean up methodologies must be mechanical involving pumping, air stripping, or chemical breakdown. While natural attenuation is not an option, dilution in areas of high groundwater flow or a spring can be sometimes be used for treatment.

Paul

Thanks, I was not aware of this.

Duke

[Terry M.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

So it must have been an EPA requirement, not just California.

I previously refered to the new tanks as "non-metallic". I recall seeing some as they were being installed, and they were beige/light brown with large ribs and a wavy surface. They definitely looked like "fiberglass", but I was never sure of the exact material.

And, yes, will ethanol-laced gasoline deteriorate them? Was the material thoroughly tested? Time will tell.

Duke

Your inferred point that I should have been more delicate in my phrasing is well taken, Duke. I do not know that they are fiberglass. They did, however as you say, appear to be. I recall seeing placards on some that had the word "Fiberglass" in large red letters on a white background with some smaller lettering around it. This could easily have been the name of the company that manufactured them though, rather than a statement of their material.

[Paul J.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

Your inferred point that I should have been more delicate in my phrasing is well taken, Duke. I do not know that they are fiberglass. They did, however as you say, appear to be. I recall seeing placards on some that had the word "Fiberglass" in large red letters on a white background with some smaller lettering around it. This could easily have been the name of the company that manufactured them though, rather than a statement of their material.

Guys, fiberglass is used, and so is steel, although all steel tanks must double walled. ALL of these tanks are coated with epoxy paint and steel tanks and lines usually have cathodic protection. But most importantly, each tank must have a leak detection system. Not like the old days where you "stuck" the tank and compared the content of it against daily sales. It must have electronic detection. Some stations have equipment that will even monitor water content inside of a tank.

The large plumes in the past from leaking tanks occurred over a long time. That's why so much material was lost and spills were unmanageable. The leak detection systems are supposed to cut down on the total amount of the spill, which can keep it out of the groundwater.

Paul

[Clem Z.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

So it must have been an EPA requirement, not just California.

I previously refered to the new tanks as "non-metallic". I recall seeing some as they were being installed, and they were beige/light brown with large ribs and a wavy surface. They definitely looked like "fiberglass", but I was never sure of the exact material.

And, yes, will ethanol-laced gasoline deteriorate them? Was the material thoroughly tested? Time will tell.

Duke

in boat fuel tanks the resin was attacked not the fiber glass. they are still installing the fiberglass tanks as i saw them at a local station that is being redone. must be using a difference resin

[Terry M.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

Long story, but illustrative of past issues.

My employer has an electric substation in downtown Chicago next door to a gas station. The substation dates to the early 1900s and was originally built as a direct current station. It is now Alternating Current, but it has three basements each of substantial height (12 to 15 feet). Those basements contain large circuit breakers that carry 13,000 volts. Some years back (before all this tank change-out) we began to smell gasoline in the basements and the part of the ground floor that is enclosed. This was reported, and the report went rapidly up the chain of command in the utility. You might imagine our concern should the atmosphere become explosive and one of those circuit breakers operate, as they are supposed to. Lots of people visited (I was involved in escorting many of them.) and lots of air quality tests were made. Amazingly the station owner initially denied any responsibility. Ultimately it was necessary to get government officials involved and the gas station was closed for many months. As I remember that was one of the first places I saw the fiberglass tanks.

[Paul J.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

I have hundreds of these stories, since I'm involved. Like the company whose factory completely surrounded a 1930's gas station with a pleasant old owner. The company was getting a tough time from the regulators for contaminating thier downtown site, until I had them drill in the parking lot of a small garage across the street. The drill operator thought he hit an old tank, because of the amount of free product. Turns out it was a monster plume from the 60 year old tanks under old man's station. Even though I helped him find money through the tank fund, he was'nt very pleasant after that.

Or the story about the well known fast food chain that was once headquartered in NC and had an agressive real estate director. She was boasting at a seminar that they always bought all of the corner property that was available in their target areas. I took a little wind out of her sails when I asked in front of the forum about her lack of site characterization and due diligence for potential contamination of former gas station sites. When this company was bought out, they had a large number of highly contaminated properties, including a Superfund site. I wonder if the new owner knew that.

Terry, your employer has a legal remedy. It's called environmental trespass and while it's tough to collect on, it can cover any expenses and damages that are incurred. By the way, fiberglass tanks were first used to store gasoline in 1965.

Paul

[Terry M.]

Re: Gasoline Quality

Terry, your employer has a legal remedy. It's called environmental trespass and while it's tough to collect on, it can cover any expenses and damages that are incurred. By the way, fiberglass tanks were first used to store gasoline in 1965.

Paul

Now that I think of it, and you suggest it, I am sure this situation is not unique. It just happens to be the only one I was involved in.

It didn't happen as far back as the '60s -- I began work there in 1969, and I suspect this was the late '70s if I had to pin it down. After I typed "owner" and I thought about it some, I believe the person we were dealing with while the owner, was a franchisee or something like that. I think it was a company owned station. Regardless my employer is a very large company, and I am sure they had/have a number of high-paid lawyers on their staff (Which is why I haven't mentioned their name, and don't intend to.). From my perspective it was simply a matter of getting the issue up the food chain to get those people involved, and doing it as rapidly as possible. I didn't relish each trip there because while the air quality tests always showed non-explosive gasses, the situation scared the bejebers out of me. I just don't like the smell of gasoline, in my garage or in my workplace.