Ethics Question

[Michael D.]

Re: Ethics Question

My .02: The fact that you have posted your question to seek opinions from others leads me to believe you have already questioned yourself on this point. When I find myself in a similar situation, I follow my conscience.

[Gene M.]

Re: Ethics Question

Mike, My fat fingers and lack of proofreading skills apologize. This is an L72 427/425. Al, I hear you about what may happen in the future. I can leave the pad blank as it is now but that still affords a future owner opportunity for mischief. If I want to restore back to original as much as possible, I have few options. There's no way to brand the title and any paper I may create can get separated from the car. Do I have to intentionally avoid building a correct engine due to potential future fraud?

In order to restore a car "back to original as much as possible" you need all the original pieces. A true "restoration" uses the parts that came off that car. A major item such as the engine from a donor car or otherwise is replacement, not restoration. Lesser items such as clock, vent window, carburetor, starter, radio knob, head liner, carpet, seat covers replaced is under a common understanding of restoration. Items such as engine block, frame, transmission, and rear end supplied from sources other than the car being restored fall under the description of replacement. A restored car can be a combination of restoration and replacement it just the degree you are comfortable with.

If I truly wanted "......... back to original as much as possible" I would seek a more complete car to start with. One that has the original engine would be a requirement.

Having paperwork is nice but if the engine is missing it just describes what was. Now it is not. To me a complete car is worth much more than papers.........

[Michael W.]

Re: Ethics Question

One that has the original engine would be a requirement.

.

But not in NCRS flight judging which I understand is what the OP is asking about..

[Gene M.]

Re: Ethics Question

But not in NCRS flight judging which I understand is what the OP is asking about..

No, The gentleman is inquiring about member thoughts on the restoration engine stamping issue. He makes mention that NCRS is more lenient requirements compared to outside NCRS. James appears to be questioning what is ethical or not about stamping a VIN derivative on a substitute engine block intended for flight judging.

I see his dilemma, NCRS accepts restamping with no disqualification. But a stamping has the implication that it is "original" to the car if the number reflects the identification of said car. This stamping is more sacred outside NCRS much the same as NCRS holds the VIN tag or trim plate .

[Michael W.]

Re: Ethics Question

NCRS accepts restamping with no disqualification.

No disqualification- but an appropriate point deduction.

[Gene M.]

Re: Ethics Question

Michael,
I don't think James cares about the point deduct, but he in a dilemma on restamping ethics. I see that he wants the car restored correct as possible but does not want to cross that "restampers bridge". If ya have reservations about it, (as I do) don't do it. Each person's personal feelings tells one if it is right or wrong regardless of NCRS acceptance.

[Michael J.]

Re: Ethics Question

No, The gentleman is inquiring about member thoughts on the restoration engine stamping issue. He makes mention that NCRS is more lenient requirements compared to outside NCRS.

This stamping is more sacred outside NCRS much the same as NCRS holds the VIN tag or trim plate .

I'm not sure what car groups you are thinking of, but MCA and SAAC have no requirements for an original engine, they don't even check the VIN derivatives, the same goes for the Mopar Nationals judging. I have won gold and first place (the highest awards with near perfect totals) in those car clubs competitive competitions with NOMs, they don't care about that at all, not even any deductions like NCRS does.

[Gene M.]

Re: Ethics Question

Michael, Post #22, We are talking Corvettes here. Take a look at the new Bloomington requirements for the various levels of gold.

[Michael J.]

Re: Ethics Question

Michael, Post #22, We are talking Corvettes here. Take a look at the new Bloomington requirements for the various levels of gold.

Ok, so only Corvettes mean anything wrt re-stamping engines and prestigious awards based on "as delivered" standards

Sure I read all about that earlier here:

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...n+engine+stamp

But now tell me how Bloomington, who only is in business to make money, has such higher and more serious standards than NCRS????

Here are the standards:

http://www.bloomingtongold.com/documents/TheStandards.pdf

Declare it non-OEM and still GOLD.

[Tracy C.]

Re: Ethics Question

A re-stamp, disclosed or discovered, is about 85 points total deduction, if I remember correctly.

It is not an "all or nothing" 88 point swipe. Read up in the Judging reference manual. Disclosures on a green sheet do not factor on the judging field. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

[George J.]

Re: Ethics Question

I'm not sure what car groups you are thinking of, but MCA and SAAC have no requirements for an original engine, they don't even check the VIN derivatives, the same goes for the Mopar Nationals judging. I have won gold and first place (the highest awards with near perfect totals) in those car clubs competitive competitions with NOMs, they don't care about that at all, not even any deductions like NCRS does.

Outside the muscle car arena the other clubs definitely hold original stampings in high regard. A Ferrari block with an original stamping to a particular car could easily be worth over $500k. The high end car clubs look at the NCRS with high esteem because of all of the work they've done vetting all of these issues out, and the way they document the judging standards.

George

[Michael J.]

Re: Ethics Question

It is not an "all or nothing" 88 point swipe. Read up in the Judging reference manual. Disclosures on a green sheet do not factor on the judging field. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I'm just going on what happened to my restamped engine at a regional. The block casting dates, etc. were correct, but the whole 88 points were deducted for my restamped VIN derivative and engine code and date, along with the surface. It had passed before in previous judging. Here is a picture of it:

I think the judges told me the reasoning was that since it was restamped like original, but was a restamp, then nothing on the pad was original and thus NTFP.

[Tony S.]

Re: Ethics Question

Judges are generally expected to judge on the basis of appearance. (exception: putting a magnet on parts to see if the parts are stainless steel). This "appearance standard" goes to any line item in the judging process (e.g. paint, reproduction parts etc). If the judged item appears as it typically appeared from the factory, then it should receive no point deductions. The NCRS judging system is never intended to serve as a "guaranty of originality". It simply represents the opinions of the flight judges who are judging a car on that particular day. We try to develop through education and training greater uniformity in judging, but what one judge may perceive can be different than what another judge perceives. That's one of the reasons why we have two flight judges per section and not just one (two heads are better than one). If the owner disagrees with the evaluation of the flight judges, then the owner can appeal to the team leader. If a flight judge has some questions on how to call an item, I have heard it repeatedly said that the doubt goes to the owner.

A good flight judging team should be composed of two judges who talk and listen to one another. There have been times when I've leaned one way on a judging call but my fellow judge explained why he felt differently. We came to a fair decision and moved on. There are also times when a car is presented for judging when an attribute appeared to vary from what we would expect to see in a "typical car", so we asked the owner about the deviation. One '65 that Gene Leonard and I judged in Frisco last year had alot of green paint on the lower section of the core support. We asked the owner about it. The owner explained that he was the original owner and that's how his car originally appeared. It was an A. O. S. body and A. O. S. delivered bodies with green core supports that were more or less painted black in St. Louis. The point is, a good judge will not follow every judging evaluation like a robot but will consider factory deviations or variances in the manufacturing processes that went into building these cars.

[Bob S.]

Re: Ethics Question

An authentic build sheet indicates a '66 was built with a particular original engine (427/435). The original engine is long since gone. We can verify what engine it shipped with and can obtain an original block with correct casting and build numbers and rebuild to OEM specs. Is it ethical to deck the block and restamp it w/ the '66 VIN and correct engine suffix? The engine build date will be a guesstimate and the broaching will be good but obviously not original. What disclosures are required or recommended? Is this a good or bad idea?

As the rules state...(And I'm paraphrasing here) "If the stamping of an engine pad is done to accurately represent how the car came off the assembly line, it will be considered 'Correct' If the car was originally a 327, but now has a 427 and the numbers are changed to represent another car entirely, this would not be accepted"

The bottom line is, that a "Re-Stamp" that is intended to defraud the judges, is.. obviously not allowed..In your case, you are attempting to bring the car back to it's original state.

I'd say, be sure you know what engine the car came with, and you should be fine. On another note, I've known of people who tell the judges right up front that the engine is a Re-Stamp, and inform them that the car came to you with no engine. Better to take care of it right from the start.

Hope this helps

Bob
(9944)

[Patrick H.]

Re: Ethics Question

I think the judges told me the reasoning was that since it was restamped like original, but was a restamp, then nothing on the pad was original and thus NTFP.

And that is not the intent of the standard.
If it looks like original, it passes, other knowledge of the part history not entering into the equation.

The intent of the "pad surface" deduction is to deduct for those that really look nothing like original and are obvious fakes/forgeries/whatever.

My next question is - how did they know it was a restamped engine? Did you tell them?

Patrick