My 365 That Isn't

[Clem Z.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

if the rebuilder is going to use bronze wall valve guide replacements you need to use hard chrome plated valve stems to prevent wear problems.

[Clem Z.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

if the rebuilder is going to use bronze wall valve guide replacements you need to use hard chrome plated valve stems to prevent wear problems.

also never reuse a valve that come out of a worn guide as the stem will have a rough surface that will wear the new guides.

[George C.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

John, and Clem,
Thank you for your responses I will clean up the block some more and post some new photos.

Duke,
Thanks as always for your candid response. I am not totaly educated on this and I look to this forum for assistance. I have read your article, but thanks for reminding about it, I will read it again tonight.
I did see significant slop in the valve guides so understand why he wants to change them, the ones he showed me are steel, not bronze, and are spiral cut for oil flow. I do have solid lifters, I believe they were new when the block was done as there are no marks or wear on the faces or the OD.
I will round up a dial indicator and check the lift on the cam, was going to do that this weekend, as it is easier than removing the cam to try to identify it.
Wear on the seats is present but I am not expert enough to know how much, and you are right I am taking some advise from the machine shop.
The valves & springs are being purchased in a package to be OEM spec.
More to follow as I go.
Thanks again,
George 36908

[Timothy B.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

George,

Don't mix the lifters up when inspecting them, they need to go back in the samer hole on the same camshaft lobe.

[George C.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

Tim,
Thank you, I have read that before and have only removed a few of them looked them over and put them back in respectiev holes.
Is there any similar concerns about Pushrods?
Thank you,
George

[Timothy B.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

George, If the pushrods get mixed up it's ok. In a perfect world it's good to keep everything at the same location but the tappet to camshaft lobe is very important. The parts wear in together and if the location is changed the lobe and lifter will wear causing a major camshat replacement job.

[George C.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

Guys,
Weekend update. I cleaned the stamp pad with lacquer cleaner and took some more photos. Is it possible the block was refaced and left the original number stamping? There is no raised metal around the stamping.
I tried Norther tool and NAPA and neither had a dial indicator in stock, so I have ordered the dial indicator from NAPA, it will be here tomorrow. I can then check the deck height and the lift on the cam. I did get intake manifold and exhasut manifolds cleaned up bolts are all cleaned up.
I am still reading the articles on head massaging and how to calculate the true compression I have to work with.


IMG_0010.jpgIMG_0011.jpgIMG_0012.jpgIMG_0013.jpg

[Patrick B.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

Guys,
Weekend update. I cleaned the stamp pad with lacquer cleaner and took some more photos. Is it possible the block was refaced and left the original number stamping? There is no raised metal around the stamping.
I tried Norther tool and NAPA and neither had a dial indicator in stock, so I have ordered the dial indicator from NAPA, it will be here tomorrow. I can then check the deck height and the lift on the cam. I did get intake manifold and exhasut manifolds cleaned up bolts are all cleaned up.
I am still reading the articles on head massaging and how to calculate the true compression I have to work with.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]41296[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41297[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41298[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41299[/ATTACH]

George-- I'm afraid there's not much doubt that these numbers were applied after the block was decked. The 6,9 and 0 in the VIN derivitive and the 2 and 3 in the assembly date stamp are not among the character styles seen on factory stamps.

[Duke W.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

Guys,
so I have ordered the dial indicator from NAPA, it will be here tomorrow. I can then check the deck height and the lift on the cam. I am still reading the articles on head massaging and how to calculate the true compression I have to work with.

A dial indicator cannot be used to measure "deck height". It is used to measure "deck clearance". The compression ratio article explains the difference in these two dimensions.

Also, the photos clearly show the rotary end mill tooling marks from the decking operation. The good news is that a thin head gasket should achieve a reasonable compression ratio, but it must be thick enough to maintain at least .035" "quench clearance", which may be the limiting factor on how thin it can be.

Typical decking operations remove about .010". If the Flint-machined deck height was nominal the deck clearance should be about .015", and a .020" gasket will do the job.

Duke

[George C.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

Patrick,
Thank you for your input.
George

[George C.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

Duke,
Sorry, the article in the Restorer Magazine clearly explains the difference I just typed the wrong term I should be able to post the clearance figures tonight, provided Napa got my dial indicator delivered from the warehouse. I will also be able to check the lift on the cam, but priority now is on figuring out the compression ratio.

It is pretty obvious about the block decking, what I don't understand is why it looks and feels so flat, like it was shaved but not deep enough to remove the whole original stamping.

Thanks,
George

[George C.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

Duke,
The saga continues. I picked up my dial indicator and magnetic base tonight and set out to do some measuring. Here is what I found:
On the right bank all cylinders have .031 deck clearance
On the left bank I have measuring front to back .029, .030, .030, and .029.
So by reading your, Duke, information above: "Typical decking operations remove about .010". If the Flint-machined deck height was nominal the deck clearance should be about .015"
Now I wonder has the deck been machined or what? I am reading your above to say "nominal deck clearance" for these engines was about .025. Curious why I have .029 to .031 with a decked block? I guess it could be in the pistons or the rods?

As for the cam, I measured the lift at the lifter on 5 different lobes and came up consistently with about .3225. Wasn't I surprised when I looked in the shop manual and the first number I read was .4850. I then saw that number was at the valve stem and found the other number, .3233 which is measured at the pushrod which would more likely be the same as measuring at the lifter. So is that close enough to assume it is the original or a replacement 30-30 cam?

So I am off to play with the compression calculator, but scared of what I will find, and looking forward to your input.

Thank you,
George

[George W.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

George,
Looking at your new pics I see marks from sanding on the pad, but no broach marks. it appears to be re-decked???
George

[John M.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

George,
The .323" lift is what the 30-30 is spec'd at so that's probably what you've got. Regarding the deck clearance. Since you don't know for sure what pistons and rods you've got these numbers don't mean a whole lot except that you can use them in your compression calculator if you have the combustion chamber volumes. There is a certain amount of volume in those valve reliefs too, but I can't remember the numbers. The .001-002" difference in clearance is not a worry. (not for me anyway) It could be due to re-sized rods and who knows what else. If the block was decked there should be somewhat uniform machine marks everywhere.
What I would do is check the head volumes when you get them back or have the shop do it and with that and the deck clearance, determine the compression ratio and select the best head gasket to suit your needs and put it back together. I have a feeling that the CR will be somewhat low with those pistons and that clearance.
Best of luck,
John

[Joe C.]

Re: My 365 That Isn't

The block was decked.
The numbers were definitely stamped AFTER the block was decked.
You have a 30-30 cam spec for lobe lift.
The pistons should be tapped down with a brass hammer at TDC and before clearance is measured.
The main journal might have been align bored/relocated.
The rods might have been reconditioned/shortened.
The piston to deck clearance should be measured at 2 locations for best accuracy, and should be done across the pin axis.

Carefully measure the chamber volumes to verify that they are in the OEM range of 64-65cc (with correctly relieved 2.02/1.60 valves). Your compression ratio will never be high enough with those pistons, in order to build a strong running engine with a 30-30 cam. You can advance the cam by an additional 4 degrees, for a total of 8 degrees, but even that won't be enough to make up for the engine's compression deficit. Because you're using cast pistons, you can decrease the safe quench by about .005, to .030". You should consider changing to a milder cam, like the L79, or the L75. The 30-30 needs at least 10.75:1 and preferably 11.25:1 SCR to make power. Less than this will produce a slug at RPM's south of 4500. If you want the sound of the 30-30 with a milder duration, then you'll have to go to the aftermarket. If you're dead set on using a OEM solid lifter cam, then the 097 is much better suited to lowered compression than the 30-30. I have recommended running the 097 with 1.6:1 rocker ratio when used with 2.02/1.60 heads. The extra lift works VERY well with the "big" heads and all who took my advice have been very happy with the results.