No steps forward and 3 back.

[Michael M.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Hi Doug,

Antifreeze usually burns as thick white smoke, almost like steam only thicker. Did you find water in the oil? You might find oil in the coolant as well or instead. If the oil is clean, refill your tank and run it a bit to see if there is oil floating in the tank. If you find water in the oil, obviously, don't run it and don't leave that oil in the pan. Shoot some fogging oil into the cylinder that has the water, if you find it, until you repair whatever it is that caused it. Maybe someone knows a better product for that application. Good luck! It sounds like you're real close to being finished. Very frustrating.

Mike

[Doug L.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Progress report. I removed the alternator and exhaust manifold today. I then reemoved all 4 spark plugs, one at a time starting from the front. I saw nothing unusual until I removed the plug from the rear cylinder (#8 I think). That plug was wet around its base and had liquid between the electrode and the tip. It seemed like water to me.

The first thing I did was put a wrench on the adaptor plate (intake manifold)to cylinder head bolt. The second bolt from the rear was the only one I could get to easily and I got approximately 1/2 turn on it. My next thought was that this loose bolt was allowing water to pass into the combustion chamber, but there is no water passage in the rear part of the FI adaptor plate, so I think that theory is no good. Given the location of the wet plug I think the problem has to be either the head gasket or a cracked head. While I would like to torque the adaptor plate to cylinder head bolts and see what the result is, I'm going to pull the head and have it magnafluxed. I see no point in re-assembling the engine without checking the head for a crack.
Doug

[Edward J.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Doug, Given that you had bent rod before the rebuild, Its a indicator that there was once a problem with water/anti freeze entering a the cylinder. If the machinist that did the valve job knew this he may have done a pressure test or magnaflux of the heads. I think its a smart thing to do at this point to contiune to pull the head, As you surely don't want this to happen again. Good luck Ed

[Joe M.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Brake pulls left....new shoes meeting up with drums for the first time need to get to know each other. Used to be the shoes and drum were fitted by the brake shop.

that might be causing the pull.

[Terry M.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Doug, Given that you had bent rod before the rebuild, Its a indicator that there was once a problem with water/anti freeze or fuel entering a the cylinder. If the machinist that did the valve job knew this he may have done a pressure test or magnaflux of the heads. I think its a smart thing to do at this point to continue to pull the head, As you surely don't want this to happen again. Good luck Ed

There Ed I added another potential fluid for you. I do agree, however = time to take things apart and see what is up.

[Edward J.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Terry, I would hate to see a backfire on starting with a cylinder or cylinders full of fuel. But I guess anything is possible with a fuelie.

[John D.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Progress report. I removed the alternator and exhaust manifold today. I then reemoved all 4 spark plugs, one at a time starting from the front. I saw nothing unusual until I removed the plug from the rear cylinder (#8 I think). That plug was wet around its base and had liquid between the electrode and the tip. It seemed like water to me.

The first thing I did was put a wrench on the adaptor plate (intake manifold)to cylinder head bolt. The second bolt from the rear was the only one I could get to easily and I got approximately 1/2 turn on it. My next thought was that this loose bolt was allowing water to pass into the combustion chamber, but there is no water passage in the rear part of the FI adaptor plate, so I think that theory is no good. Given the location of the wet plug I think the problem has to be either the head gasket or a cracked head. While I would like to torque the adaptor plate to cylinder head bolts and see what the result is, I'm going to pull the head and have it magnafluxed. I see no point in re-assembling the engine without checking the head for a crack.
Doug

Doug, Have a qualified machine shop check the head for flatness also. Also have them come to your house and check the top of the block. Look for cracks between ports. Cracks between valve seats. Get a better head gasket. Don't use the rubber seals on the baseplate over and they aren't much good to start with let alone a 2nd shot. Check the side of the baseplate for flatness. A lot of them are warped in the center. Gail Parsons told me to leave those alone as they will draw down. I don't know if that's true of not in some cases.
Remember to remove the FI unit first. And then the baseplate/adapter plate. Some don't know this. Put some sealant on some of the intake to head bolts. The ones that enter the water jacket. Let the gang tell you what kind of sealant. I use Loctire 545 hydraulic sealant. Don't use 271 as it's permanent.

[Doug L.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

For any of you that subscribed to this thread, here is an update.

I pulled the intake manifold (adaptor plate) and after much consideration I decided that it was the likely source of water leaking into the #8 cylinder. I installed new gaskets (from John DeG.) and applied Permatex #3 aviation gasket maker to both sides of the gaskets, the head and the adaptor plate. I torqued the bolts to the highest value shown in the manual and used Threadlock blue on the threads after cleaning the threaded holes with brake cleaner. I reassembled and let it sit for 3 days. I started the engine over the weekend and although there was no giant white cloud, the right exhaust was visible due to a white mist in it. I shut down the engine after ~1 minute and pulled the #8 plug. There was again water on it and later I found water in the oil when I drained the pan again.

Now I'm thinking it has to be the head gasket, so I tore it apart again yesterday. There is no evidence of a head gasket failure. I sat the head upside down on the bench and leveled it. I then installed a spark plug in #8 and filled the combustion chamber with water. There was no water loss after 3 hours. Today we heated the surface of the combustion chamber looking for possible cracks. Nothing is visible. Nor can we see anything in the intake or exhaust ports. There is faint evidence of rust on the combustion chamber surface around the exhaust valve.

The machine shop said they had the heads magnafluxed before doing any work. New valves, seats, and guides were installed. The head that came off the right bank is back on that bank with the camel humps forward. The surface of the head checks as level and flat. Since there is no evidence of a failure of the head gasket, it seems that checlking the block surface is un-necessary. The head gasket was a Fel Pro Permatorque 0.040" composition as I specified, having steel rings around each cylinder hole.

My plan now is to remove the valves and have the head magnafluxed again. Other than a crack in the head the only other thing I can think of is a crack in the cylinder wall. The block was bored and sleeved to bring it back to 4". I see no visible evidence of a crack but have not pulled the piston. Am I missing something? Any ideas?

Thanks,
Doug

[John D.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Doug, I use a machinist straight edge on the side of the intakes, etc.
Check the top of the block as you are assuming it is level because of nothing showing on the gasket. I would still check it. Doesn't hurt to get a 2nd opinion of the condition of your cylinder head. Not saying your machine shop isn't top notch.
Recheck the side of the intake (baseplate) to make sure it's straight. Sometimes I see one that has has a slight hump in the center. But it should draw down.
Put the intake on with no gaskets. Check the angle of the two surfaces. JD

[Edward J.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Doug, magnaflux, is one check for the head another is, pressure testing the head, which they'll flow water into the head under pressure. this may show something they may have missed. Good luck. Ed

[Stuart F.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

From my experiences from back in the day, I'd point at the cylinder sleeves that you casually mentioned. Unless they are done just right (granted today's tech is alot better) they are a common cause of coolant leaks. Back in 1959, we had a Pontiac 389 in a 58 Vette punched out to 500+ C.I. using sleeves. No matter what we did it continued to leak. We were on a breakin run to Chicago on I94 and had to stop every so often to add water. When we determined it to be a lost cause, my friend (the owner) tried to blow it up on the way home. He had log manifolds with two chevy tri-powers on it and we went under the oasis at 120, then he cut in the other 4 carbs and we fish tailed up to 6500 rpm, but still wouldn't blow up. He scraped the block and moved on.

Stu Fox

[Doug L.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Hi Stu,
Man I hope not.

Dave, I did look at that hole. There are actually a few in that area, one is a threaded bolt hole and the others are into the water jacket. There are no pits in the surface. I do see a tiny amount of corrosion but on the circumfrence away from the cylinder. The impressions of the steel rings of the head gasket are quite clear on both the block and head. There is no sign of any "break" in those rings.
Today I removed the valves and valve parts from the head. Tomorrow it goes for magnaflux and dye-penetrant testing. When that is done, assuming no cracks, I plan to place the head back on the block and lay the adaptor plate in place then use a feeler gauge to try to see if there is any difference between the inner interface and the outer interface with the head surface.

[Doug L.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Hi Dave,
Thanks for your suggestions. I'll look into each of them. The head is off and disassembled and will be tested (Magnaflus and dye penetrant) today.

I don't understand why you say water could not get past the intake manifold. The rear port on the head is a water passage. There may be a crossover water passage through the manifold on carburated cars but on the FI manifold ("adaptor plate") that "port" is blocked off. There is a slight indentation in the adaptor plate at that location, but no passage through the adaptor. Let's say that there was a breach in the gasket between the water port and the rear-most intake port which is the next port forward. Why wouldn't water flow from the water port to the adjacent intake port? Or in a possibly more likely scenario what if the surface of the adaptor is not parallel with the mating surface of the head. This is a situation I plan to review. Both the heads and the deck surface of the block were milled. I don't know how much was removed; I think it was a minor amount, but the head sits lower than it did previously. At a minimum I think the adaptor plate would then sit relatively higher on the heads, and if the surface of the manifold ports is not perpendicular to the deck surface, the angle where the adaptor plate meets the head may also be different. It seems to me that such a situation could leave a gap along the top or bottom.

I have examined the upper 2-1/2" of cylinder wall and see no sign of a crack. I'll probably pull the piston if the head inspection shows nothing.

The heads were not ported and we examined the #8 intake and exhaust interrior very carefully. Nothing was visible.
Doug

[Page C.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Hi Doug,
I have read through your post and feel for you. The one thing that comes to mind it what Ed suggested in post #18. Do your heads have replacement valve seats?. If so there is a possibility that when the heads were cut for the seats, they cut into the water jacket and the leak is coming from behind the valve seat into the cylinder. The only way to find out for sure is to pressure test the head. This will not show by magnafluxing. This is one many reasons I feel like replacement seats are not worth the cost.
Good luck,
Page

[Doug L.]

Re: No steps forward and 3 back.

Mystery solved. Magnaflux found a crack aproximately 1/4 to 3/8" long on the surface of the head that mates with the block deck. The crack is located between the intake and exhaust valves just inside the ring of the head gasket. It does not extend to either of the valve seats. It wasn't visible to the naked eye, or at least not to mine. Have not yet been back to the machine shop that did the work. I suppose it could be welded and pressure tested. I see used 3782461 heads on Ebay from $400 to $600 each. The problem is I have no way of knowing if they are good. Next stop machine shop. I'm not convinced they magnafluxed the heads. The crack is certainly in an area that would have been checked.