Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)? - NCRS Discussion Boards

Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

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  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15656

    #31
    Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

    Hill climbing or light acceleration detonation is possible when a spark advance map is optimal. It is sometimes caused by a "too aggressive" VAC. For the 30-30 cam, the typical idle is 10" @ 900, and it has an 8" VAC, so it just meets the Two Inch rule.

    You say you have a 30-30 cam, but how do you know? How do I know? One thing to do is check normal idle vacuum with the VAC connected and the nominal 12* initial. If it's 10" Hg @ 900 that's a good inference that it has a real 30-30 cam. If it's higher you have something else. Measure it and let us know. Also, what valve clearance are you running?

    Setting up an engine at the ragged edge of detonation is the best setup for fuel economy and performance when the available fuel octane is marginal for the CR. That's how I have all my cars setup, however, sometimes I experience a little transient detonation in hot weather.

    If you have light detonation when climbing a hill, simply "drive around it" by shifting to a lower gear to climb the grade. If you can't live with that restore the proper initial timing and slow the centrifugal curve with some stiffer springs.

    But I still have some suspicion about what you say is the configuration. There are virtually no reports of 365 HP detonation that I am aware of, otherwise.

    I recently evaluated a local chapter member's 365 HP '65. The engine had been rebuilt by a PO and a mechanic had recently set the valve clearance to 365 HP specs. My testing indicated that it had the OE spark advance map and the 10" @ 900 idle was good evidence of a 30-30 cam, but we suspected the compression had been lowered with flattop pistons and a thick head gasket, which would drop the CR to around 9:1 - same as the advertised CR of the '71, LT-1, which was designed for regular unleaded.

    I adjusted the idle mixture to get rid of some start-up stumble, set the total WOT advance at 39*, which would be about 15 intial and suggested he try a few gallons of 87 PON regular unleaded when the tank got low. He did and said it ran fine - no detonation, so now he can save about 5 percent at the pump.

    The engine pulled fine from 1000 revs in top gear - not real strong for a big V-8 - but smoothly with no protest of any kind.

    Duke
    Last edited by Duke W.; June 22, 2012, 12:01 AM.

    Comment

    • Joe C.
      Expired
      • August 31, 1999
      • 4598

      #32
      Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

      It is very difficult to get detonation with a real 30-30 cam, especially with the fuel mix that you're using. If your valves are lashed at .023/.023 and you're using original type stamped steel rockers, then your idle vacuum should be around 8 in-hg @ 850 RPM. If lashed at .030/.030, then idle vac will be about 9 in-hg.

      You stated early on that: "Engine is stock (with 30-30 cam and 11:1 compression)." How do you know this? Vacuum readings as above will be a good indicator of cam installed. Measuring lobe lift will help, as well.

      If you have a real 30-30 cam installed, then bear in mind that the wider the lash, the more the engine will be prone to detonation. If your engine is truly unmodified and the valves are lashed within an acceptable range (ie: anywhere between .023/.023 and .032/.032), then the only other concern might be carboned-up combustion chambers. You can quell the detonation by enriching the a/f ratio, but that's a band-aid.

      Comment

      • Dennis K.
        Expired
        • April 30, 2000
        • 46

        #33
        Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

        Thx for setting me straight John. I got some bad info from the folks at Summit. You are right on the damper. While sending out my bad (original) damper for repair, I did purchase one from Summit that has the timing indicator 10degrees off-set from the key-way. Thus... I had been timing the car wrong all along with this new damper. Anyway... using a piston stop - I found the actual TDC for the new (wrong) balancer and marked it (new TDC is 10degrees advance as marked on the damper). I re-positioned the distributor (it was a tooth off) and lined it up perfectly based on piston 1 with my revised TDC indicator at 0 on my timing mark. I then set the timing at 10 degrees advance at idle (with the vaccuum advance blocked off). Plugged the vaccuum advacne back in and trimmed the idle back to abot 850 RPM. I checked the timing with my gun... and at WOT (e.g. 500RPM) I am seeing about 52 degrees. Is this normal? I drove the car.. and I still have detonation. I have also performed compression test (just to see) ... and I have about 150-160lbs of pressure on all of my pistons. Thoughts?

        Regards,
        Dennis

        Comment

        • Joe C.
          Expired
          • August 31, 1999
          • 4598

          #34
          Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

          Originally posted by Dennis Kurimai (33979)
          Thx for setting me straight John. I got some bad info from the folks at Summit. You are right on the damper. While sending out my bad (original) damper for repair, I did purchase one from Summit that has the timing indicator 10degrees off-set from the key-way. Thus... I had been timing the car wrong all along with this new damper. Anyway... using a piston stop - I found the actual TDC for the new (wrong) balancer and marked it (new TDC is 10degrees advance as marked on the damper). I re-positioned the distributor (it was a tooth off) and lined it up perfectly based on piston 1 with my revised TDC indicator at 0 on my timing mark. I then set the timing at 10 degrees advance at idle (with the vaccuum advance blocked off). Plugged the vaccuum advacne back in and trimmed the idle back to abot 850 RPM. I checked the timing with my gun... and at WOT (e.g. 500RPM) I am seeing about 52 degrees. Is this normal? I drove the car.. and I still have detonation. I have also performed compression test (just to see) ... and I have about 150-160lbs of pressure on all of my pistons. Thoughts?


          Regards,
          Dennis
          10* initial + 24/26* centrifugal + 17* vac adv = 51/53 total
          Reread post #32. Verify that you have a 30-30 cam installed. Verify that your lash is within spec. If all else checks, then clean the carbon from your cylinders.
          150 - 160# cranking pressure is perfectly acceptable.
          How are you determining "WOT" advance? Simply gunning the throttle while in neutral is not valid , since "WOT" implies under full load. "WOT" in neutral @ 5000 RPM pulls full centrifugal, but does not deploy the vacuum advance once vacuum stabilizes when steady RPM is reached.
          What is your vacuum at an 850 RPM idle?
          Last edited by Joe C.; June 26, 2012, 05:00 PM.

          Comment

          • William C.
            NCRS Past President
            • May 31, 1975
            • 6037

            #35
            Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

            OK, keep in mind that at WOT the vacuum advance is actually zero, so you can't add that to your WOT timing at high rpm. The high advance is designed to maximize fuel economy with lean mixtures at cruising speeds, so your WOT hypothetical is not really relevant to actual driving modes. The 17 degrees of advance in the vac can seems about right, max centrifugal advance should be 24@2350 rpm crank speed and crank advance. That gives a total advance at WOT of 36 degrees assuming 12 initial, or 36 total which is about the Chevy target for WOT performance optimization on a smallblock with 11 to 1 pistons.
            Bill Clupper #618

            Comment

            • Dennis K.
              Expired
              • April 30, 2000
              • 46

              #36
              Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

              Thx Bill and Joe. QUESTION = if I hold the accelerator down so as to bring the engine up to 5000RPM - and hold it there (e.g. the engine wants to be at 5000RPM due to throttle pressure) doesn't the vacuum come back? In other words, at a held 5000RPM would not the advance be: 12*initial + 24*centirfugal+16.5*vacuum = 52.5*total (approx)? How could total advance at WOT be 36* then? (I am thinking that once the engine reaches its "desired" state again given throttle pressure that the vacuum advance cones back in) Going to re-test distributor (and vacuum advance) on distributor machine today and will report back. As for valve lash - what is good spec/procedure to test (should it be set at .030"?)? As for cleaning carbin from cylinders - any advised procedure/cleaner?

              NOTE: My detonation occurs when cruising down the road and then light throttle is applied to maintain speed up a slight slope -- I can accelerate out of it (but I must accelerate hard - which to me indicates that I am reducing vacuum advance). Once I stop accelerating (while te car is still on the slight slope) the detonation returns (which to me indicates that the detonation comes back after the vacuum advance comes back in). Am I correct here?

              Thx,
              Dennis

              Comment

              • Timothy B.
                Extremely Frequent Poster
                • April 30, 1983
                • 5183

                #37
                Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

                Dennis,

                You are correct, I want to suggest that if your camshaft is making 14" idle vacuum as I think you reported in the text above and you are using the original 236 vacuum control that's where the detonation is coming from. The control is slow retarding timing because it's full in at 8" vacuum. You can benefit from a vacuum control that's all in at 12" vacuum as it will retard fast when the engine is put under load, (Duke's two inch rule)

                Try to time the engine for total WOT timing by removing the springs on the weights, marking 36* on your damper, (set at TDC then move 12* at a time and mark the balancer) and set timing at 36*, you will not need to rev the motor higher than 1500rpm. Finish by replacing the springs and checking the inital timing for future reference, it should be in the 12* range if the centrifugal advance in the distributor is to factory spec.

                Go for a ride around the block without the V/A connected and see if you can hear ping, then connect V/A and around the block to see if it pings. The only other thing to do if ping with V/A connected is to find a control that allows 12* when pulled full but I don't think it's necessary.

                Total idle timing is the sum of inital plus V/A plus any centrifugal at idle rpm.

                Total WOT timing is the sum of inital plus centrifugal advance usuallu 36-38*

                Total timing is the sum of inital, full centrifugal and V/A and the engine is most efficient in the 50-53* range.

                Comment

                • Duke W.
                  Beyond Control Poster
                  • January 1, 1993
                  • 15656

                  #38
                  Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

                  When you push the throttle pedal to the floor when driving the car, manifold vacuum goes to near zero, so the vacuum advance does not add any additional advance all the way to the redline. You can simulate this in order to determine the WOT advance curve by disconnecting and plugging the VAC signal line and then revving the engine with a dial-back timing light.

                  If the VAC is connected and you rev the engine with no load, manifold vacuum will be high yielding full vacuum advance and once you get above the RPM where centrifugal is all in you should read in the low fifties.

                  Light acceleration detonation indicates that the centrifugal curve is too aggressive for the fuel or the engine setup. I'm beginning to think you don't have a 30-30 cam, in which case you should slow the centrifugal with stiffer springs and install a less aggressive VAC.

                  The 30-30 cam should idle at about 900 @ 10" Hg manifold vacuum in normal configuration. That's with the VAC connected and total idle timing is near 30.

                  Put a vacuum gage on it and tell us the vacuum gage reading and idle speed before you go any further.

                  Duke

                  Comment

                  • Duke W.
                    Beyond Control Poster
                    • January 1, 1993
                    • 15656

                    #39
                    Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

                    I couldn't find where he reported 14" idle vacuum, but we need the speed too, so let's get the idle vacuum and speed and go from there.

                    Duke

                    Comment

                    • Joe C.
                      Expired
                      • August 31, 1999
                      • 4598

                      #40
                      Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

                      Originally posted by Dennis Kurimai (33979)
                      Thx Bill and Joe. QUESTION = if I hold the accelerator down so as to bring the engine up to 5000RPM - and hold it there (e.g. the engine wants to be at 5000RPM due to throttle pressure) doesn't the vacuum come back? In other words, at a held 5000RPM would not the advance be: 12*initial + 24*centirfugal+16.5*vacuum = 52.5*total (approx)? How could total advance at WOT be 36* then? (I am thinking that once the engine reaches its "desired" state again given throttle pressure that the vacuum advance cones back in) Going to re-test distributor (and vacuum advance) on distributor machine today and will report back. As for valve lash - what is good spec/procedure to test (should it be set at .030"?)? As for cleaning carbin from cylinders - any advised procedure/cleaner?

                      NOTE: My detonation occurs when cruising down the road and then light throttle is applied to maintain speed up a slight slope -- I can accelerate out of it (but I must accelerate hard - which to me indicates that I am reducing vacuum advance). Once I stop accelerating (while te car is still on the slight slope) the detonation returns (which to me indicates that the detonation comes back after the vacuum advance comes back in). Am I correct here?

                      Thx,
                      Dennis
                      Cleaning the carbon from the chambers is a last resort. There will likely be no reason to go there. As I said before................if you indeed have a real 30-30 cam (or reproduction thereof) in your engine then it is VERY hard to induce detonation with it..............especially given the fact that you're doping your fuel with race gas. The fact that it detonates under light acceleration while cruising indicates that the engine is on the ragged edge, since it is easiest to induce detonation under these conditions.

                      AGAIN, I SUGGEST THAT YOU REPORT YOUR ENGINE'S VACUUM AT 850 RPM. IT SHOULD BE BETWEEN 8 - 9 IN-HG, DEPENDING ON YOUR LASH. IF IT IS HIGHER THAN THIS, THEN YOUR LASH IS SET TOO WIDE, OR YOU DON'T HAVE A 30-30 CAM INSTALLED. IN EITHER CASE, THAT EXPLAINS YOUR DETONATION PROBLEM.

                      Comment

                      • Dennis K.
                        Expired
                        • April 30, 2000
                        • 46

                        #41
                        Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

                        Thx Joe, Duke, and Tim,

                        Got the distirbutor back fro testing it on the sidtobutor machine... and found that my vacuum can was bad. I have istaleld a new B28 NAPA repacement can.. ad when I stested that it was yiedling too much vacuum advance according to the spec... so I creating a "sleeve" out of brass tubing that limits the vacuum advance. anyway - complete test indicates now that I am at 52 degrees "all in" and at 36 degrees advance when vacuum is at/near zero (according to my tests at 4000RPM). I will run a vacuum test on the car later tonight. QUESTION - advice on setting valve lash? Just set them all to .030"? I am going to use the lash adjustment method you (Duke) posted with John Hinckley and you (Duke).

                        Cheers,
                        Dennis

                        Comment

                        • Duke W.
                          Beyond Control Poster
                          • January 1, 1993
                          • 15656

                          #42
                          Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

                          I'm not convinced you have a 30-30 cam. I want to see the idle vacuum at 900 RPM. The VAC should be connected and use an accurate test tach to set the idle speed. As long as you have a vacuum gage and tach connected, might as well adjust the mixture. With a 30-30 cam about 1.5 turns out from the seat on the mixture screws is probably where it idles best.

                          The idle speed/mixture adjusting procedure is in the '65 Shop Manual Supplement.

                          Whenever reporting idle data always report both vacuum and idle speed. Always! Idle vacuum depends on idle speed, so it must be reported for the data to have any meaning.

                          Duke

                          Comment

                          • Dennis K.
                            Expired
                            • April 30, 2000
                            • 46

                            #43
                            Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

                            Thx Duke. Hooked up vacuum gauge and I got 11" at approx. 850rpm. Thoughts? NOTE: I have modified my B28 Can to limit advance. Can mirrors spec 100%. I also drove the car down to San Diego (I am here this week) and found the car running a bit lean. Running 67 jets in primaries. Still seeing detonation... Thinking of increasing them to 69s... Thoughts?

                            Cheers,
                            Dennis

                            Comment

                            • Joe C.
                              Expired
                              • August 31, 1999
                              • 4598

                              #44
                              Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

                              Originally posted by Dennis Kurimai (33979)
                              Thx Duke. Hooked up vacuum gauge and I got 11" at approx. 850rpm. Thoughts? NOTE: I have modified my B28 Can to limit advance. Can mirrors spec 100%. I also drove the car down to San Diego (I am here this week) and found the car running a bit lean. Running 67 jets in primaries. Still seeing detonation... Thinking of increasing them to 69s... Thoughts?

                              Cheers,
                              Dennis
                              Post #40: "AGAIN, I SUGGEST THAT YOU REPORT YOUR ENGINE'S VACUUM AT 850 RPM. IT SHOULD BE BETWEEN 8 - 9 IN-HG, DEPENDING ON YOUR LASH. IF IT IS HIGHER THAN THIS, THEN YOUR LASH IS SET TOO WIDE, OR YOU DON'T HAVE A 30-30 CAM INSTALLED. IN EITHER CASE, THAT EXPLAINS YOUR DETONATION PROBLEM."

                              Recheck your lash. Set it tight @ .023/.023 to .025/.025.

                              Hand turn the engine in its normal direction of rotation while watching the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder. When the exhaust valve begins to open, stop and adjust that cylinder's intake valve.
                              After the intake valve has been adjusted, continue to rotate the engine, watching that same intake valve. The intake valve will go to full lift and then begin to close. When the intake is almost closed, stop and adjust the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder.

                              If you have a 30-30 cam installed, and your engine is 327 cu-in, then your vacuum at idle will be no more than 8 in-hg @ 850!!!! If it still detonates after you do this then you certainly do NOT have a 30-30 cam installed!!!

                              Comment

                              • Dennis K.
                                Expired
                                • April 30, 2000
                                • 46

                                #45
                                Re: Distributor Timing Map/Curve for 65 SHP (365hp L76)?

                                Thx Joe. How frequently should I check/set the lash?

                                Regards,
                                Dennis

                                Comment

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