NCRS and the clones

[Lyndon S.]

Does NCRS judge a car to a standard of "correctness" or to a standard of "originality"? Say someone showed up at the judging field with a '69 ZL1 (not one of the two known to exist). No documentation. Just a perfect car. All stamps are correct, all broach marks correct, etc, etc. Everyone is 99.9% sure that it is a clone, but it is a 100% correct car. Would that car be judged?

[Michael J.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Well I guess if everything was correct and accurate, including the engine pad stamp (and they are getting so good at clones these days), then since documentation and originality based on that are not judged, then what else could the judges do but give it a very high score. This is how many of the other car groups (MCA, Mopar Nationals, etc.) are doing it.

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Everyone is 99.9% sure that it is a clone, but it is a 100% correct car. Would that car be judged?

Prior knowledge of a car is not to be used on the judging field. Why wouldn't it go through the judging process, unless it's found to have a bogus VIN tag?

[Tom R.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

[QUOTE=Lyndon Sharpton (12791);601243]Does NCRS judge a car to a standard of "correctness" or to a standard of "originality"? QUOTE]

Neither!

Correctness sounds like an absolutism and I believe judging guidance has attempted to move judges away from "correctness" and to using the elements of originality and condition.

[Patrick H.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Given its rarity it would require supporting documentation.
It would not go through the process as-is.

Why?

Because they're still to be judged as the factory made them - and I don't mean a restoration factory. Since the factory made only 2 (maybe 7 if you read old sources) then you'd better show that it came from the factory in the same configuration it's being shown. Of note, this is no different for any Corvette that the NCRS judges. If a small block grows into big block or gains an FI unit, that situation also has consequences in the judging system.

Patrick

[Michael J.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Things is though, how do you show, without question or doubt, that any vintage Corvette came from the factory in the same configuration it is being shown? The VINs show nothing really, you can show the VIN tag is authentic, and the trim tag is the same, unless you change the color or interior, that can be authentic as well, even if it grows a big block, L88, LS6, FI, etc. So how do you know for certain one of the maybe 7, but maybe 2, ZL1s is not the one in front of you if everything is correct and accurate for that configuration on the car itself?

[Roy S.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Guys,
Patrick is correct, NCRS at least at the Regional or national level would require some sort of documentation in this case, this is a hobby we are not going to judge and offer an award to a very, very rare car without some sort of supporting documentation.
The Only ZL1 judged to date has a car shipper and order copies, both pieces of documentation are considered authentic.
Why should NCRS risk the reputation of the organization? In the case of a very rare unusual vehicle we will not. Burden of proof is the owner’s responsibility.

[Michael J.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

So which "rare" Corvettes require this external documentation to be judged? Is that in the judging manual someplace?

[Joe R.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

I was always under the impression that cars were judged to showroom standards. Hubcaps on etc. The ZL-1 would not be a good example but the 67 435HP would be a great example! Probably a hundred or more have been faked and certified NCRS Top Flight.

What really is the difference?

JR

[Lyndon S.]

[Richard S.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Patrick,

Could you are soneone else provide additional information regarding the "maybe 7" 69 ZL1's produced by the factory. I am only aware of the the 2 produced by the factory and the 2 Duntov mules. Speaking of which, how would two mules that were reconfigured by Zora from cast iron blocks to ZL1's "clones" be judged?

[Mark D.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

A 67 435 is not one bit different than a 69 ZL1 IMO. At any time, any judge can ask any owner to show proof that a car came the way it's being presented on the field. Granted, a ZL1 is ultra rare and most likely would be asked to show proof based on the rarity but, a 435 can be questioned based on a pad stamp, a 66 300 horse can be questioned and the owner can be asked to prove the side pipes are as delivered IF a judge has reason to place that burden of proof on the owner. A 68 350 HP with AC can be questioned about the AC if the judge has a valid reason to ask. It's the way its always been and hopefully will continue to be. I've stood on the judging field and asked for the owner to show proof and I've witnessed the same scenario with other judges and owners many times. Sometimes the owner prevails and sometimes they don't.

As for the 'certification' thingy, it is my understanding NCRS doesn't certify cars to be original, only that they were judged to appear typical on the day they were judged and awarded whatever certificate they were awarded.

That's how I see it but, I'm a blockhead pilot. It surely does seem that I enjoy this hobby and organization a heck of a lot more than some of you guys. If I didn't, I would find another place a lot less expensive to be miserable.

[Jeff P.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

Would like to know about these other ZL-1 references, never heard about there being other cars , but heard of many Camero's and ZL-1 engines being sold to Racers and Boat Racers.

[Patrick H.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

I've been reading Corvette magazines and officially "into" the hobby since February 1985. If you've read thousands of articles over the past 27 years there are some older articles - including a newspaper article from the early 70s - that refer to 7.
Now, note that GM can't tell us how many there really are so it doesn't make a lot of difference. Whether 2 or the apocryphal 7 it's still a rare car.

Patrick

[G A.]

Re: NCRS and the clones

As for the 'certification' thingy, it is my understanding NCRS doesn't certify cars to be original, only that they were judged to appear typical on the day they were judged and awarded whatever certificate they were awarded.

Why then wouldn't the OP's cloned ZL1 be judged as 'typical' without the extra layer of proof?

Then why would the OP's cloned ZL1 have to provide documents if the judging is as 'typical'?
Given its rarity it would require supporting documentation.
It would not go through the process as-is.

Why?

Because they're still to be judged as the factory made them - and I don't mean a restoration factory. Since the factory made only 2 (maybe 7 if you read old sources) then you'd better show that it came from the factory in the same configuration it's being shown. Of note, this is no different for any Corvette that the NCRS judges. If a small block grows into big block or gains an FI unit, that situation also has consequences in the judging system.

Patrick

So one could make perfect clones of base models all day and not be held to the same standards as another or "rare" car?

Seems to me that an air of certification exists.

Dan