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Oil Change

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  • Bill B.
    Very Frequent User
    • December 1, 1993
    • 192

    #16
    Re: Oil Change

    Has anyone read this? Duke does this article apply to CI-4 & CJ-4 classifications?


    Bill

    Comment

    • Duke W.
      Beyond Control Poster
      • January 1, 1993
      • 15669

      #17
      Re: Oil Change

      The article was written primarily for the Australian market, so it may be confusing to Americans since oil products for Australia differ from those offered in the USA and may or may not conform to API specifications.

      I do have something to say about the following quotes from the article.

      "Also many of the diesel oils with higher Phosphorus also contain higher levels of detergent and dispersant which compete for surface area with the ZDDP which can reduce its effectiveness."

      I've seen this claim before on the Internet, but it has never been accompanied by any reference to any bonafide technical source documents like SAE papers. It's just this claim with no sources to back it up. But since it's on the Internet it must be true, right? The detergent/dispersant and P concentration of CJ-4 is about the same as SF and CH-4, but CJ-4 has a more oxidation resistant blend of base oils.

      Keep in mind that prior to SL when there was no P limit, most commonly available engine oils were dual-rated, meeting both the then current S and C-category certifications, which means that detergent levels required to pass both S and C-category test suites were about the same and both had about 0.12% P.

      Due to modern gasoline engines' precise fuel metering and tighter overall operating clearances, less detergent/dispersant is needed than for vintage gasoline engines. It's possible that modern S-category oils have LESS detergent than S-categories from the sixties to nineties. I'm not sure. In any event, I know of no bonafide evidence that supports this "detergent/dispersant competes with ZDDP" claim. Does anybody...?

      The only negative affect of detergents/dispersants that I am aware of is that they can increase oil foaming, but this is controlled at adding an anti-forming additive, and there is an API test for this - both C and S-category. And don't forget that virtually all modern diesel engines are highly boosted with turbochargers, which means that high oxidation and foaming resistance is a must. Our vintage gasoline engines are a much more benign environment for the oil. And don't forget that most, if not all, primary C-category oils also carry an optional secondary S-category certification as I explained in my engine oil article.

      "During the development of the current API SM engine tests, a high phosphorus diesel engine oil was run in a flat tappet, push rod engine test and it failed the wear requirements with worse results than most low Phosphorus passenger car oils."

      This is the first time I have ever heard this claim, and since it is undocumented, I have to take it with a grain of salt. So should everyone else. It seems that every day something shows up on the Web that the sky is fallling when it comes to motor oil, but none of it is backed up with any source documentation. Until these claims are backed up with source documentation I don't take them seriously.

      "The 0.10% limit has been in place for approx. 15 years in the USA"

      This statement is incorrect. The first P limitation, which was 0.10%, as stated, was implemented in the API SL specification, which went into effect in late 2003 for 2004 model year cars.

      "API performance qualifications started at SB in the 1930s"

      Another incorrect statement. As I believe I stated in my engine oil article, the current S and C-category API classification/certification system started in 1969. Prior to that "heavy duty" oils of the sixties, which contained detergents/dipsersants and about .08 percent P were designated MS (spark ignition), DG, DM (diesel engine), and most were dual-rated. When the current system started circa '69 the latest oils were classified SD. SC, SB, and SC replaced the old M designations, and SA was for non-detergent oil. (You can verify all this by simply downloading the API Engine Oil Guide pdf that I referenced in my engine oil article.)

      I will continue to use CJ-4 in all my cars that have sliding surfaces in the valve train and continue to recommend its use in all older engines with sliding surfaces in the valve train.

      If you haven't read the referenced article, yet, my recommendation is don't waste your time (unless you live in Australia), and always be wary of claims with no source references.

      Duke



      Last edited by Duke W.; February 2, 2012, 12:37 AM.

      Comment

      • Bruce D.
        Frequent User
        • August 31, 1980
        • 87

        #18
        Re: Oil Change

        Duke's info is all correct. A couple of us in our club have investigated some of the stories and the pros and cons and have settled on Brad Penn oil. It is available in various viscosities (sp) and seems to have all the right 'stuff' already in it.
        Bruce

        Comment

        • Duke W.
          Beyond Control Poster
          • January 1, 1993
          • 15669

          #19
          Re: Oil Change

          Why use a "boutique oil" when CJ-4 at half or less the price has everything needed to provide state-of-the-art protection for vintage engines?

          Duke

          Comment

          • Bruce D.
            Frequent User
            • August 31, 1980
            • 87

            #20
            Re: Oil Change

            Duke: Not sure I have a completely logical answer for you, but here are a few of the points we considered after reading your article, the references and suggested course work you suggested and the various data sheets that are available. we did spend a good amount of time trying to learn as you suggested.
            1. All the oils mentioned seem to have all the 'right stuff' in them.
            2. The Brad Penn is a little more expensive, but at the low volume we use and the case price we get, it is not a lot of difference in money.
            3. Brad Penn seemed to provide the specs for what was needed in a clear understandable fashion.
            4. There is a wide range of weights available (I happen to use 20w50 in my big block driver).
            5. And last but not least, we thought there was a little uncertainty in what might be in the diesel oils for their umique requirements such as detergents.

            Again, we do not dis-agree with anything you said. We just took all the data on the various points we could gather together and had to make a decision....

            Thanks for all your information and specific details on various subjects over the years. Looking forward to meeting you during your presentation on July 1st at nationals in San Diego.
            Bruce

            Comment

            • Philip P.
              Expired
              • February 28, 2011
              • 558

              #21
              Re: Oil Change

              Bruce, One thing I would add is that Brad Penn is Made in the USA with Pennsylvania stock....well that is what they say.

              Comment

              • Duke W.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • January 1, 1993
                • 15669

                #22
                Re: Oil Change

                Does the Brad Penn package have the API "donut" with listed service categories? If so, what are they?

                Duke

                Comment

                • Dick W.
                  Former NCRS Director Region IV
                  • June 30, 1985
                  • 10483

                  #23
                  Re: Oil Change

                  I have used diesel spec oils in everything I own since 1961. From Mil Spec 2104 B thru CJ-4. In the '60's I ran cars with over 250,000 miles on them, never removing the cylinder heads or the oil pans. I use it today because it is a versatile product, works in my Cub Cadet to my F**d diesel pickup and everything in between. I also use it because it is cheap compared to the boutique oils that have sprouted up to capture sales from all the people that read the "sky is falling" crap that is disseminated thru the internet, by people that can barely spell motor oil, let alone understand what all the numbers mean.
                  Dick Whittington

                  Comment

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