1965 L84 Fuelie motor build advice

[Gary W.]

Gents - I want to build a '65 L84 motor to OEM performance spec. Can someone please point me to the right literature for the build and advise best parts suppliers?
I've already begun the quest and have the following parts: #7017380 fuel unit & manifold; #3782870 block; #3782461 heads (2.02/1.60); #3859326 water pump; #3817173 finned balancer; #359942 oil pan.
I parrticularly need help is sourcing correct: forged steel 'tuftrided' small journal crankshaft (with hard-facing still intact & threaded pulley bolt hole); #3849346 camshaft; #1111070 distributor (which I'll convert to pointless).
All the other bits (pistons/rods/bearings/gaskets etc) I want to go with the best current (ie up-graded materials/tollerances).
Many thanks in advance,
Best Regards,
Gary (Perth, Australia)
P.S. I spent many hours searching TD Archives and Google so I'm not being 'lazy' with my request for help.
P.P.S. I'm not building a 'restoration' motor as my fuel unit is highly polished....this motor is for FUN & driving & reliability.....NOT for Judging......any advice (especially on what CR to run) is greatly received.

[Timothy B.]

Re: 1965 L84 Fuelie motor build advice

Gary,

Sounds like you have done the homework needed for a nice motor build. Look at the high land pistons that are available from sources like sealed power, these locate the top compression ring higher on the piston compared to OEM type pistons. I would use the stock height domed pistons with a tight quench and thin steel head gasket to keep that compression up.

The head work has been discussed here before and there is lots of good info in the archives about the port maching and pocket porting.

[Tim S.]

Re: 1965 L84 Fuelie motor build advice

[QUOTE=Timothy Barbieri (6542)

The head work has been discussed here before and there is lots of good info in the archives about the port maching and pocket porting.[/QUOTE]

I suppose this is going to open up a pandoras box but, you are soliciting some opinions. to Tim's point, some restrained head work is going to pay some real dividends. The argument over the 30-30 cams versus using the later LT-1 cam is REALLY one worth opening up your mind and spending some time to investigate. I myself, have used the LT-1 cam in a 63 L84 car years ago and I am going to use it again in my new 63 L84 car. The additional vacuum is a real plus! I may suggest Tom at Classic Engine searching for your crank. You are going to want to consider some aftermarket connecting rods as it appears you are starting from scratch.

http://www.classicenginecompany.com/contact.ivnu

Advances in pistons, cams, valve springs, etc can make your 65 a real sceamer (not that it wasn't new) and still retain it's appearance and characteristics. If you were to google 327 LT1, you are going to find a lot of good reading and some debate.

Best of luck and enjoy the ride!

Tim

[Joe C.]

Re: 1965 L84 Fuelie motor build advice

If you want your engine to make big power then you won't get both maximum torque and power with a stock, antique GM cam. Look to the aftermarket, specifically Comp Cams for a roller tappet cam whose duration(s) @ .050 are in the 240-250 degree range. Solid rollers generally use higher lift which is not necessary unless you change to headers and a higher capacity induction system. Hydraulic rollers are a smarter choice unless you are not averse to changing the external appearance of your engine. You can go beyond pocket porting on your 461 heads and have them deliver flows up to 255 cfm. The Speed Pro L2166NF pistons are good enough for your build. Modern pistons with narrow profile rings will not gain you very much and are not commensurate with the additional expense. Take a look at Total Seal gapless sets but only use the sets with gapless TOP ring, not gapless second ring. Have your block honed while deformed with deck plates. If you don't care about the stamp pad (although if you're diligent, the pad can be saved) have the block decked so that you can achieve quench of .030 - .035, use a robust composite gasket of (generally), .036" compressed thickness, and last but not least, achieve accurate and consistent SCR in all 8 cylinders. You MUST, MUST choose your SCR to be compatible with the intake valve closing and the cam's ramp rate. As an example, using the antique LT1 cam, a static compression ratio of 11:1 will be well tolerated with tight quench, and the antique 346 ("30-30") cam will tolerate close to 11.3:1 while using an aggressive ignition timing config and running on 93 PON gasoline .

[Michael H.]

Re: 1965 L84 Fuelie motor build advice

I suppose this is going to open up a pandoras box but, you are soliciting some opinions. to Tim's point, some restrained head work is going to pay some real dividends. The argument over the 30-30 cams versus using the later LT-1 cam is REALLY one worth opening up your mind and spending some time to investigate. I myself, have used the LT-1 cam in a 63 L84 car years ago and I am going to use it again in my new 63 L84 car. The additional vacuum is a real plus! I may suggest Tom at Classic Engine searching for your crank. You are going to want to consider some aftermarket connecting rods as it appears you are starting from scratch.

http://www.classicenginecompany.com/contact.ivnu

Advances in pistons, cams, valve springs, etc can make your 65 a real sceamer (not that it wasn't new) and still retain it's appearance and characteristics. If you were to google 327 LT1, you are going to find a lot of good reading and some debate.

Best of luck and enjoy the ride!

Tim

Here we go again. Where's Duke?

[Duke W.]

Re: 1965 L84 Fuelie motor build advice

Someone made a similar '65 L-84 inquiry about a week ago. Nothing's changed since then.

An unmolested small bearing Tufftrided crankshaft will be tough to find. One person I know found one through his machinist.

As far as camshafts go, both the 30-30 and LT-1 cams are readily available from NAPA.

Duke

[Gary W.]

Re: 1965 L84 Fuelie motor build advice

Thankyou VERY much Timothy/Tim/Joe/Michael/Duke.

I've since scoured many more posts on this subject (incl. the recent one referenced by Duke) and must confess to being more confused whilst at the same time more informed - does this make sense?

The "duelling at 20 paces" between Duke & Michael on the pros-v-cons of the 30-30 vs LT-1 cam is most interesting but doesn't help me........my mistake for being un-informed so I'll try and dumb my request for info down:
Q1: what are the BEST cam/crank/internal parts to use with my existing combo of fuel unit/block/heads to achieve the ultimate compromise between driveability/max HP/max torque/optimum reliability for a street car whilst retaining equal or 'tougher' sound to the original L84? (I'm not interested in PV) Please be specific if possible, as a total package, as if you were building this motor for yourself. (yes, I am a rank novice, that's why I'm asking you guys)
Thanks,
Gary.
n

[Duke W.]

Re: 1965 L84 Fuelie motor build advice

If you read all the "327 LT-1" posts on this board and the Corvette Forum, you should know that my answer to your question is the 327 LT-1 because it makes more low end torque than if equipped with the 30-30 cam while making about the same top end power. To those who say they can tell the difference between the LT-1 cam and 30-30 cam at idle I say BUNK! The owners of the two prototypes couldn't detect a difference, and all the up front system engineering, details of the builds, and dyno tests are on the Web.

The Eagle SIR5700 rod should provide the same bottom end durability as the Crower Sportsman at about half the cost, so that's what I recommend, today.

The secret to top end power is massaging the heads correctly, not some "magic" camshaft. Other than the rods, all the other parts should be OE replacement, and that includes the LT-1 cam since it has been listed in the GMPD books as the replacement for the 30-30 cam for over 40 years.

You should also get the book "How to Hot Rod Small Block Chevies". It has all the details on "head massaging" and other "blueprint" procedures, so it's your guide to whatever you do and managing your machinist.

Send me an email and I'll send you the technical support paper for the "Special 300 HP" engine. The basics in the paper on bottom end and head preparation and compression ratio management apply to any small block restoration where maximum torque bandwidth is desired along with maintaining OE appearance and idle behavior. It also has links to online parts catalogs where you can find all the parts you will need.

Duke

[Joe C.]

Re: 1965 L84 Fuelie motor build advice

Be sure to have the block thoroughly hot tanked and be SURE to have the machinist remove ALL of the gallery plugs and rod/wire brush out ALL of the oil passages before he hot tanks the block. It's advisable to have the final hone done while the block is deformed with deck plates.The additional expense is worth it as it will ensure that the cylinders are perfectly circular when you torque down your 461's. You might invest in Total Seal gapless top ring sets as well, for better sealing. If you have not purchased a block, be sure to select one that has meaty cylinder wall thickness and minimal core shift. You ought to have someone measure it with a sonic thickness tester. Minimum thicknesses for a street engine are about .150 on the non thrust (fore-and-aft) sides , and .200 on both the minor and major thrust sides. Use a high quality true double roller timing set (the front of the block will have to be "relieved" for this). Finally, there is no longer a need for a high pressure oil pump if the main bearing tolerance between the shell and the journals is .0020 - .0025 on both the rods and mains and a good multiviscosity oil is used. The Melling 55 oil pump will be sufficient.

Use the Speed Pro CS118R camshaft with Sealed Power VS677 valve springs set to 1.700 installed height. I would avoid any modified/backyard mechanic "special" camshafts if I were you. It was stated in the above post that "magic" camshafts should be avoided.................and then, later in the post a "special" camshaft is recommended. Use Clevite 77 "P" main/rod bearings. Use Speed Pro L2166NF pistons which has 5/64 5/64 3/16 ring grooves.

The most important area of the heads is the valve seats. Have them done by a dedicated head specialist using a Serdi 3 angle valve seat cutting tool. If any valves need to be replaced, then standard duty stainless steel valves will be sufficient. Have the head specialist back cut the intakes, and back and front undercut the exhausts. Have the valve throats opened up by a pro, and streamline the valve bosses as well as recontouring the pockets. All work should be confined to the seats and bowls, except that a gasket match of the intake ports should be done. In your case, the small port Fel Pro 1204 should be used as a template and then installed on the engine.