'66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

[Gary B.]

Some of you know that I've been working on an article for the Corvette Restorer on '66 frame stencils. I have photos of about a dozen original stencils in my database now. I have a question for those of you who are familiar with the sequence of events when a '66 was assembled. Is it ever possible that the date on the Trim Tag can precede the frame stencil date? If so, does it depend on whether the body is AO Smith vs. St. Louis? I think I have two examples in my database of where the frame stencil date comes after the trim tag date.

Can someone educate me about the dating of the frame vs. the trim tag on a '66? Did the frame not always start out first, i.e., with an earlier frame date relative to the trim tag date?

Thanks,

Gary

[Tony S.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

The frame pull date should always post-date the body build date on the trim tag. As I understand the process, the assembly plant had stacks of frames at the plant. At or near the point of pulling (taking) a frame from the frame stack for chassis assembly, someone at the plant would use a grease or paint stick and write the pull date on the side frame rail. The "pull date" is when the bare frame was pulled from the frame stack. The bare frame then began its assembly journey and soon was matched up on the line with the body. From what I've seen, the frame pull date on '65 and '66 is often dated either the day before or the day of the car's build date. Of course, the body build date (as shown on the trim tag) will always predate the car's build date. I think John Hinkley or Mike Hanson could give you an eyewitness account.

Hope this helps...

[Wayne W.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

I can see it happening on AOS.

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

The frame pull date should always post-date the body build date on the trim tag....

Anthony,

That is not the case. For 11 of the cars in my '66 frame stencil database, the frame date precedes the trim tag date. For two cars, both with AO Smith bodies, the frame date post-dates the trim tag date. It's those two AO Smith cars that are the reason for my question.

Gary

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Wayne,

So a body at AO Smith could have gotten it's trim tag and then be sent to St. Louis for mating with a frame that was dated after the trim tag date. Is that a possible scenario?

But for a St. Louis body, the frame likely got pulled before the body got it's trim tag, hence the frame date on St. Louis bodies cars would precedes the trim tag date?

Gary

[Jim D.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Wayne,

So a body at AO Smith could have gotten it's trim tag and then be sent to St. Louis for mating with a frame that was dated after the trim tag date. Is that a possible scenario?
Gary

Absolutely. My A.O.Smith 65 body has a April 1st date on the trim tag and the frame was pulled April 8th.

[Wayne W.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

I would think it is likely that many, maybe even most, AOS bodies have a frame pull date later than the body.

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Wayne,

Thanks. You've eliminated my concerns about originality.

Gary

[Tom R.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Wayne,

But for a St. Louis body, the frame likely got pulled before the body got it's trim tag, hence the frame date on St. Louis bodies cars would precedes the trim tag date?

Its a dozen years later, but I studied a 78 Pace Car whose frame stencil date was within three days of the trim tag date code...closest I've seen. BTW, the stencil date code preceded the trim tag date code.

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Its a dozen years later, but I studied a 78 Pace Car whose frame stencil date was within three days of the trim tag date code...closest I've seen. BTW, the stencil date code preceded the trim tag date code.

Tom,

For the St. Louis bodied '66s in my stencil database, all frame dates precede the trim tag date and the shortest differential is 1 day. The longest differential is 15 days. Three cars have differentials in the 9 to 11 day range.

Gary

[John C.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Tom,

For the St. Louis bodied '66s in my stencil database, all frame dates precede the trim tag date and the shortest differential is 1 day. The longest differential is 15 days. Three cars have differentials in the 9 to 11 day range.

Gary

Gary

I'm no expert on frame pull dates, but some of the long date lengths you give don't make sense to me for a St. Loius built bodied car. From what I understand the hand written date on 66 frames represents when the frame was put on the assembly line in St. Louis. If this is true, I don't see how this date could precede the trim tag date on a St. Louis car by more than just a day or two. Once on the assembly line the frame would be assembled and mated to a body quickly. I can't imagine a case where it took 15 days for a frame to go down the assembly line to the body drop.

I also don't think you can compare hand written 66 frame pull dates to the stenciled dates on later cars such as a 78. The stenciled dates were put on by AO Smith at the frame plant in Milwaukee, WI. It represents either when it was manufactured or shipped from their plant and is not related to when it started assembly in St. Louis.

John

[James G.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Anthony,

That is not the case. For 11 of the cars in my '66 frame stencil database, the frame date precedes the trim tag date. For two cars, both with AO Smith bodies, the frame date post-dates the trim tag date. It's those two AO Smith cars that are the reason for my question.

Gary

A.O. SMITH Bodies were painted and shipped by rail from Michigan. They had their TRIM TAG installed at Michigan when built. The rail trip was 4 to 7 days, and then by the time they were unloaded and put on the line to meet up with the FRAME and DRIVELINE about 10 days had gone by. SEARCH for JOHN HINKLEY Archive on this subject. He was the GM Engineer in charge of the production line in 66 and 67.

[Gary B.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

Gary

I'm no expert on frame pull dates, but some of the long date lengths you give don't make sense to me for a St. Loius built bodied car. From what I understand the hand written date on 66 frames represents when the frame was put on the assembly line in St. Louis. If this is true, I don't see how this date could precede the trim tag date on a St. Louis car by more than just a day or two. Once on the assembly line the frame would be assembled and mated to a body quickly. I can't imagine a case where it took 15 days for a frame to go down the assembly line to the body drop.

I also don't think you can compare hand written 66 frame pull dates to the stenciled dates on later cars such as a 78. The stenciled dates were put on by AO Smith at the frame plant in Milwaukee, WI. It represents either when it was manufactured or shipped from their plant and is not related to when it started assembly in St. Louis.

John

John,

To clarify one important thing, none of the owners of the '66s included in my frame stencil research have reported any indication or evidence on any car of a hand-written date on the frame in cases where a date is explicitly incorporated in the frame stencil. And several of the cars included in my database have clear shim marks and other underbody markings that suggest the cars are very original. Based on my research, the hand-written dating ended sometime prior to the middle of Nov 1965. So, the notion of there being an hand-written "pull" date for all or even most of '66s is inconsistent with the data.

All I can say is the evidence I've seen indicates a variable difference of between 1 and 15 days between the frame stencil date and the trim tag date for St. Louis-bodied '66. Why the range is so large, I can't say at this point.

Gary

[John C.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

John,

To clarify one important thing, none of the owners of the '66s included in my frame stencil research have reported any indication or evidence on any car of a hand-written date on the frame in cases where a date is explicitly incorporated in the frame stencil. And several of the cars included in my database have clear shim marks and other underbody markings that suggest the cars are very original. Based on my research, the hand-written dating ended sometime prior to the middle of Nov 1965. So, the notion of there being an hand-written "pull" date for all or even most of '66s is inconsistent with the data.

All I can say is the evidence I've seen indicates a variable difference of between 1 and 15 days between the frame stencil date and the trim tag date for St. Louis-bodied '66. Why the range is so large, I can't say at this point.

Gary

Gary

If the dates you are referring to are stenciled on the frame, your time frames seem logical to me. In 66 the frames were manufactured in Granite City, IL directly across the river from St. Louis. If the dates were stenciled at the AO Smith plant and they could have easily been shipped to St. Louis plant in a day. I'm sure some were sent directly to the assembly line and others held in stock to be used later and thus the 15 days.

John

[Michael H.]

Re: '66 frame stencil date vs. trim tag date

John,

To clarify one important thing, none of the owners of the '66s included in my frame stencil research have reported any indication or evidence on any car of a hand-written date on the frame in cases where a date is explicitly incorporated in the frame stencil. And several of the cars included in my database have clear shim marks and other underbody markings that suggest the cars are very original. Based on my research, the hand-written dating ended sometime prior to the middle of Nov 1965. So, the notion of there being an hand-written "pull" date for all or even most of '66s is inconsistent with the data.

All I can say is the evidence I've seen indicates a variable difference of between 1 and 15 days between the frame stencil date and the trim tag date for St. Louis-bodied '66. Why the range is so large, I can't say at this point.

Gary

Gary,

As others have mentioned, the system changed early in the 66 model year.

Before the stencil date appeared in early 66, the date was hand written on the frame rail while the frame was sitting in the building at the St Louis plant. At any given time, there might have been 20 or 30 frames inside.
This system would most likely result in a frame date that's the same as, or one work day later than the trim tag date.

When the system changed in early 66 model year, the date was added (stencil) at the source instead of at the St Louis plant. This would change the relationship between frame and body dates. Now, the frame would be dated probably at least one and possibly several days BEFORE the trim tag date.

Outside, behind the St Louis plant, frames were stacked somewhere around 13 high and there were many stacks so it would be possible for a frame to sit for several days before entering the building/production.