Best place to buy braided wires??

[Terry M.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

This thread, as part of its title, so far seems to concentrate on the wire and not the braiding. My question is: Is the factory original braid weave detectably different from later Delco service sets, and more recently, repop wire sets ?

You tell me Wayne, or any one else:
2 are the real deal and two are reproductions.

I will tell you I have stood beside the machine that Ken Hanna (Lectric Limited) says was the machine that Packard Electric used to braid the wires. That is the machine he uses to make the reproductions. It is the machine that I believe made the pictured reproductions.

[D S.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

I also have reproduction dated braided Packard wires on my '70 LS-5 and I don't have TI. I have already had one wire to burn in half at the spark plug. It's not the suppliers but the manufacturer(s) that should accept responsibility for the problems. The manufacturer(s) has not commented here to the best of my knowledge.

[Bill C.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

My vote goes for the two center cables being original as my experience is the repo wires braiding appear to have the braiding "tighter" on the cable and will not expand as much when compressing, making it impossible to remove from the wire or install on a new one.

It was possible to do this before.

I have an NOS set here dated 2Q68 and its very easy to slide the braiding on the cable and obviously would be very easy to slip off.

I also have a currently supplied set of 67 type wires that the braiding cannot even be slid on the cable, let alone compress.

I cannot imagine how this is installed this tightly without damaging the cables, maybe that explains the quick failures?

Although the unbraided sb and BB wires I am experiencing rapid failures also.

Hopefully the manufacturers are listening.......................

[Patrick H.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

I'm going to agree with Bill.

I've known about this for many, many years and in that time the repros have not seemed to change. It may be the same machine but they programmed the weave incorrectly.

[Terry M.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

Ding, ding. Bill gets the prize.

It is a mechanical machine there is, or was in what I saw, nothing to program in an electrical sense. It weaves the braid around the already assembled spark plug wires. The tension on the braid wires is controlled, I believe, by spring tension. If you look carefully I think there is a different braid wire size between the two examples. I don't want to pretend I know enough about the process from staring at the machine for a couple of minutes, but the results certainly are different from the original. There may well be more variables involved than can easily be determined without some actual contact with the process. So I think it is presumptuous of us to suggest what might be wrong -- better to stick with the fact that the reproductions shown do not look like TFP.

[Mike Z.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

OK guys, you may not like what I am about to say, but have sat back reading all the input on this thread and have had my fill of negative vibs of a long time friend of our hobby-Lectric Limited. And, the answer to the original question: they are the best source for reproduction spark plug wires-period!
I have used their products for several years. And, when the economy forced us to close a 21 year business and to add to our early retirement income, I had to resort to converting a hobby business of many years, to a full time Corvette Restoration business, one of the first vendors I signed up with was LL. TI systems is one of the specialties of my business, and I talk to the folks at LL on a fairly regular basis.
As a history listen, as I understand it; when the "General" closed the Packard division, LL stepped up and bought the patents, the equipment and inventory. Today, they have the largest inventory of original equipment, terminals, boots, and wire of anyone on the planet. They use Packard S/P wire, terminals, steel weave, etc., etc., etc., on the same equipment-just like Packard did back in the day, manufactured right here in the good ol' US of A, not China as one thread suggested. The wire is manufactured without script and they apply whatever script and/or date the application requires. So, this is why I say they are the best source of spark plug wires-period!
I have talked to Ken Hanna (their engineer/tech guy) in the past on warranty questions and such, as well as tech stuff regarding TI Systems. On warranties, he suggested any issues or preceived failure was usually not the fault of the plug wires themselves, but rather outside factors and/or damage, or design specifications exceeded.
One common factor that I know adds stress to the wires is the use of resistor spark plugs. The resistor version plug adds about 50ohms resistance, then add fouled plugs and the spark is going to seek the path of least resistance and that may not be the firing tip-no matter who's wire you are running. Also, improper use of the provided dielectric grease is another factor-this grease causes resistance, so if you get it on the metal top, guess what-the spark is not going to the firing tip.
Well, I know I am going to get some stones thrown at me, but being in business, I know how there could be some newbie to our hobby out there that falls into all of the dribble and actually believes it. I challenge anyone that has actually had a "real" issue with a set of Lectric Limited plug wires to call Ken and discuss the problem-He welcomes the purchaser of their products that has issues to call them, so they can obtain all the facts, perhaps learn and improve their product, make recommendations to cure the problem and/or replace the wires. What's the worst that could happen-you could get a new set of wires.
Mike Zamora
#12455

[Christopher A.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

I wasn't trying stir up negativity. I was actually not even aware of who made the wires. I like lectric limited and i am very grateful that they are in business and provide us with wiring products, although i wish they would offer some of the connectors to those of us that just need to do a simple repair on our wiring.

I think some good points have been brought up in this thread and a good discussion on the braiding procedure, machine, etc.

I did not think about the possibility that perhaps my new TI module could be putting out a higher current and frying the wires. I plan to contact TI specialties about this. I have some Taylor 8.5mm wires on the way to use for tuning the car while i am researching if there are any outside factors that might be causing the wires to fail.
Obviously, it is good for a company to have feedback, although i dont think bashing or extreme negativity on a forum ever really accomplishes much. Perhaps lectric limited is not aware that the wires are failing in all applications and need to be made aware of it so they can start using another brand wire or offering other wire options.

[Mike Z.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

Chris-
The Amp you got from Dave should not/will not affect the wires or exceed design specs. More specifically what I feel can exceed the design is the coil and resistor plugs. A big aftermarket coil or rebuilt or reproduction unit not within specified range, can easily exceed the original design specs.
FYI: the Delco Reproduction coils distributed by K&B Special Products and through several Dealers like myself; all are, regardless of the embossed numbers, are spec equivilent to the original Delco #207, which was GM's universal service replacement, regardless of the original P/N or application for the K-66. These coils have performed well for several years with very little issues with the coil or the plug wires-I personally have run the Delco reproduction coil and Lectric Limited wires on my 3 66's for several years.
I would look to other areas than the Amp to solve your problem. Also, Remember: those big aftermarket wires you plan on, will probably exceed design specs for TI and will probably cause their own problems. K-66 does not like high resistance wires, i.e., stainless steel core.
Mike Zamora

[Christopher A.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

Well, the good news is that the original coil was on the car and still works. I have been using it all along.

Thanks for the info on the board. I did not think it would make a difference, but I thought it was worth looking into.

hmmm, good point on the wires. Actually, it looks like I ordered 8mm, not 8.5mm. I will check them when they arrive and then install them one at a time to see if there are any issues. I still need to go through the remaining 5 braided wires as well.

I suppose the braided wires that you have on your car might be a different brand since they are older. Maybe the current wires, or the ones made in the last year or so, are the only ones having issues.

I have a new amp module, new pick up, and original coil. My distributor was rebuilt by TI Specialties, the amp was purchased from TI Specialties, and the coil was check out by Dave as well. I have two bad wires and a 3rd that the boot pulled off of. I did not use grease and that is why the one boot got throughly stuck to the spark plug. HOwever, apparently i am not supposed to use dielectric grease with these wires, according to one post in this thread.

[Terry M.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

K-66 does not like high resistance wires, i.e., stainless steel core.
Mike Zamora

Mike,

I don't want to pretend I understand spark plug wires -- my day to day operations are with #3 to 800 mcm (that's million circular mills. Bigger than many peoples fore arms) aluminum and copper wires. To be technically correct I deal with cable, but that goes astray of my question.

All that leads me to ask how a solid stainless steel wire can have higher resistance than a rayon filament coated with carbon that measures 3000 ohms per foot? What am I missing? I am not trying to be a wise a$$; I am looking to expand my knowledge.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

if you are having arc thru to ground problems just reduce the plug gap from .035 to .025. GM at one time gaped the plugs at .080 and the cars would not start in cold or damp weather because it was arcing thru the wires to ground. so they reduced the plug gap to .045

[Mike Z.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

Terry, you kinda did a got ya. You are correct the design K-66 TVRS carbon suppression wire is about 3000ohms and for the record steel wire is zero ohms resistance.
If we look at the history a bit, back in the late 50's GM (Packard) designed the Packard 440 wire which was needed for radio suppression and it did a great job on AM radio waives. Then came the advent of the FM radio and of course TV frequency waives. The "440" wires could not handle the modern era. Packard soon came out with TVRS wire, which was capable of FM & TV suppression, and did/does have about 3000ohms resistance.
About this same time, K-66 was introduced. It was introduced primarily for two reasons: Reliability and stable performance. The reliability came from no mechanical contact points to pit and/or wear and constant dwell changes and the stability came from no point bounce even to 8000RPM-both aspects, highly sought by racers at the time.
The K-66 was designed to use the TVRS wires available. Packard did however, design a lower resistance wire for the L-88/ZL-1, with a silicon based core-you probably know it as the "Orange" L-88 wire. This wire has about 400ohms resistance. Today, similar type wire (typically in black) is available through many outlets-I also can supply these wires. These lower resistance wires do work well with K-66. To those that have had problems with the wire used by Lectric Limited, these performance wires might be the answer.
These modern silicon wires use a Kevlar thread and Kevlar wrapped insulation with Silicon wrap with high dielectric strength, which is all but impossible to break. The original Packard 440 wire used a linen thread impregnated with carbon, which was not really meant to be moved around excessively, and could be a cause of problems with the wire, especially at the spark plug terminal. These new wires totally eliminate this problem. I guess one could take the sheathing off an original or reproduction wire, as has been mentioned and place over these new wires. No dating or OEM script is available (what's that worth-a point or maybe 2 in judging), but they will perform and hold up to the abuse of constant plug changes, which the OEM or reproduction wires may not. I did not offer this opinion/option previously as the original question was: Best place to buy braided wires. Additionally, I disliked the negative tone against a friend of the hobby.
Something I would be much more concerned with when it comes to resistance and the health of my ignition system is the coil. Using a 40+ old coil, used or NOS is next to insane if you plan to drive the car. Why, because with time, use or not, the coil will build carbon traces within the coil and/or boil out cooling oil: either/both cause much more resistance much earlier in the system and will become a real issue.
Many times guys call with TI problems. The first thing most point a finger at is the Amp. If you are running one of my silicon transistor converted OEM boards or one of the Delco repro modules-99.9999% of the time, it ain't the Amp. We usually find the problem in the coil or wires, and occasionally weak magnet or bad "bobbin" in the distributor. Run the Delco repro coil and one more problem is eliminated-don't trust a rebuilt, and forget trying to test a coil unless you have about $50k for the equipment and have a lab to do it correctly.
Then we are back to the wires. The reproduction braided wires should perform and be reliable under normal conditions and LL puts out a great product. However, on FI & BB cars that require plug changes more frequently, perhaps other options would work better.
Mike

[Wayne M.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

You tell me Wayne, or any one else:
2 are the real deal and two are reproductions.

I will tell you I have stood beside the machine that Ken Hanna (Lectric Limited) says was the machine that Packard Electric used to braid the wires. That is the machine he uses to make the reproductions. It is the machine that I believe made the pictured reproductions.

OK Terry -- here's my examples, and in my opinion, there's less difference than I'd expect. Top wire in 1st pic is a new repro, wires dated 1Q66 (got it at a NCRS swap tent in a Corvette America bag, but realize that they all may be made by one supplier). Only comment I have is that the repro weave is a little "looser" [more space between individual micro wires] than the others. Also the overall diameter is a tad larger.

The bottom two are service GM Gr. 2.239 # 8912284; the middle one (3rd pic) is 2Q87 and wires are marked 7mm. The bottom (4th pic) is marked 3Q84.

I have the Delco boxes for the two GM service examples: Marked Packard Electric Division, General Motors Corp. Warren Ohio; made in USA; printed in USA.

But the bottom wire (4th pic) also has a tag on box end flap with 1#458W, and over the "made in USA" printing is a tag "Assembled in Canada". And this is a set I bought off eBay from a seller in Florence Alabama .

[Rich C.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

I purchased a complete car set of harnesses for my '73, with the exception of the ignition wires. After reading about failures on the forum.I contacted L.L. to voice my concerns, mainly because I admire the length they go to attempt a quality repro, made in the USA! Following is the response, I will purchase a set, at least for judging They made some excellent points regarding their quandry as to wire size, etc.



Response....







Below, please see the warning that we have added to our spark plug wire instructions below that outline the common causes for spark plug wire failure:

WARNING! Never remove wires when they are hot as the boots can tear or the wire can be pulled out of its terminal. When removing spark plug wires, do not pull on the wire. Instead, grip the boot and use a gentle twisting motion while pulling.

WARNING! If you choose to use dielectric tune-up grease, do not allow the grease to get onto any metal spark plug terminal. Dielectric grease is an insulator and does not conduct electricity. It will cause high resistance that will lead to misfires and spark plug wire failure. Dielectric grease should only be applied sparingly to the inside surface of the rubber boots.

WARNING! This set of spark plug wires are made as-original and are not intended to be used with an aftermarket high-performance coil, or high-performance ignition system (i.e. MSD ignition system). Use of such may reduce the life expectancy of these wires and will void your warranty.

Another problem that is common, but usually not to NCRS members, is that some customers have tried to use our wires with an ignition coil that is out of factory specs. This is a problem that can be magnified in the case of a car using Transistor Ignition as this system, when new and functioning within spec., pushed the original wires to their limit. For comparison, the HEI system used in 1975 utilized 8mm wire.





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Regards,
Greg
Lectric limited


'

[Terry M.]

Re: Best place to buy braided wires??

Wayne, I agree there is less difference in your examples than in mine. Perhaps there is a wider range of weave than I thought.