Advice on buying a fuelie

[Michael J.]

I am getting interested in purchasing a fuelie and know nothing about them so would like to ask the experts here. Having always had C2s and C3s with carbs, which I am very good at working on, tuning, etc., I hestiate to jump into what I have heard is a very complex and unreliable system without knowing about them. My assumption would be that the later model FI units are the best ones, so I am looking at say '62-'65 (a C1 would be nice since I have never had one), but don't really know when they changed/upgraded the various FI units. I know I would have to get some books and read up on how they work, since I do all my mechnaical work now. I have also heard that FI has to be run fairly frequently and must be run a longer time, to get and stay hot, than a carb car. In shopping for one I also assume I will need much closer scrutiny on the car's operation that with a carb, and buy from a reputeable dealer or person who knows them for sure. Any advice and insights welcome, thanks.

[Harry S.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

Michael, I'm a 63 guy so that is where I would start. But if a 63 is not important to you then I would look for a 65. There were too many running changes in 63 and 65 was the last fuelie.

Just my 2 cents.

[Dick W.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

First thing I would do is retain someone that is intimately familiar with FI cars to look at anything you are considering to purchase. There are probably close to as many clone/bogus cars as there are real cars out there. Real cars are not cheap, but you get what you pay for.

[Stuart F.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

I had a 58 Fuelie way back in 1959. I never got to tinker with it much, but I did have some observations from having owned it through 4 full seasons. In the summer cruising downtown, it would load up and nearly die and had zero response. In the winter, it would start at +2 degrees, but would not start at -2 degrees (w or w/o a wool blanket over it). It lacked the low end "dump" performance of a good dual quad setup, but had much longer legs in the upper speed/RPM ranges. If you gradually eased down on the throttle and watched your Tach, at exactly 3500 RPM it would push you back into your seat as it multiplied torque and horsepower (Duntov cam turn on point), i.e. it would pull redline with much more ease than a dual quad setup - even if the quads were rejetted/reworked for racing.

My greatest fun came; however, in cruising through the downtown on a cool night with that sweet sucker whistling through it's 57 open element air cleaner (did I mention my 58 Fuelie engine was in a 50 Chevy coupe? I had the 58 "Fuel Injection" script lettering mounted just below the trunk lid above the rear bumper). That baby turned a lot of Commando heads.

Stu Fox

[George J.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

Michael,
don't be afraid of them. Most of the problems you describe are not inherent to the FI units, but to poor/worn condition, or ignition related. Every time I have had an issue with my car it has turned out to be ignition related. Usually bad wires, plugs, etc. I am also fairly sure the problems stated on this board are also mis-diagnosed electrical problems. That includes all the talk regarding ethanol. These cars don't like to idle at 800 rpm. Turn it up to 1100 or 1200. Whatever it likes.
You do need to run them, though. I would suggest at least once a month, and make sure you go through the unit when you get it, unless someone reputable has done it recently and you talk to them to make sure they have.
The response of a good running, properly set up unit is much better than a carb car.

George
31887

[William C.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

Mr Whittington is a wise man. Mechanical issues regarding FI can be fixed, there are experts in the field, and a little research will allow a reasonably (mechanically) competent owner to keep them on the road. However, there is no "fix" for a bogus car purchased at a "correct car" price.

[Jim L.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

I hestiate to jump into what I have heard is a very complex and unreliable system without knowing about them.

Moderately complex, yes, but not beyond the comprehension of mere mortals.

Unreliable? Absolutely not. Replace worn parts, set it up the way GM recommends, and then leave it alone. It'll run for years without any further attention.

My assumption would be that the later model FI units are the best ones,

They are the most highly developed. But, with the exception of '57 units, the early ones are perfectly usable and acceptably free of unpleasant quirks.

so I am looking at say '62-'65 (a C1 would be nice since I have never had one), but don't really know when they changed/upgraded the various FI units.

Improvement was an ongoing process through out the period FI was in production. As your intuition tells you, the later units were better than earlier units. However many of the improvements are not only transparent to the user but also can be undetectably retrofitted to early units.

I know I would have to get some books and read up on how they work, since I do all my mechnaical work now.

Yes. By all means. Anyone who has a fuelie owes it to her/himself to have at least a working knowledge of the units' innards.

I have also heard that FI has to be run fairly frequently and must be run a longer time, to get and stay hot, than a carb car.

Frequently yes, and my recommendation is no less often than every two weeks. Much beyond that interval and an internal seal can dry out and experience accelerated wear from repeated "dry starts".

As far as being run longer than a carbed engine, no. Any run time that gets the engine fully warmed up is fine.

In shopping for one I also assume I will need much closer scrutiny on the car's operation that with a carb, and buy from a reputeable dealer or person who knows them for sure.

When you test drive a potential purchase, expect the engine to start easily after a few revolutions. Be suspicious of any off-idle stumble when you drive away. Don't accept any black tail-pipe smoke as "normal". Expect instant throttle response when you "nail it" at hiway engine speeds. Slow the car to 1000 RPM in 4th gear and floor the accelerator; the car should accelerate smoothly and without drama.

Any unit that won't pass all the above tests needs work.


Fuelies are fine. There are some minor quirks to which you have to become accustomed, but that just adds to the charm of ownership. I've been driving and working on fuelies for 33 years. I trust them enough to make solo cross country drives with them and encourage all FI owners to just get out and drive'em.

Jim

[Loren L.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

A quote from the Philadelphia Regional Zone Officer in charge of warranty repairs in 1957 - who had 2 guys who did NOTHING but FI and ultimately never went on a warranty call without a complete unit in the car; one of his guys called in in 1957 and asked "Call Rochester and see if they EVER built 2 units the same.".

[John D.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

[quote=George Jerome (31887);581395]Michael,
don't be afraid of them. Most of the problems you describe are not inherent to the FI units, but to poor/worn condition, or ignition related. Every time I have had an issue with my car it has turned out to be ignition related. Usually bad wires, plugs, etc. I am also fairly sure the problems stated on this board are also mis-diagnosed electrical problems. That includes all the talk regarding ethanol. These cars don't like to idle at 800 rpm. Turn it up to 1100 or 1200. Whatever it likes.
You do need to run them, though. I would suggest at least once a month, and make sure you go through the unit when you get it, unless someone reputable has done it recently and you talk to them to make sure they have.
The response of a good running, properly set up unit is much better than a carb car.

George, Very well written. Now if car owners would do what you said life would be a lot easier. I don't know why guys have to idle their fuel car sooo low. They run a lot better with higher idle.
62 was the 1st year for a real deal carburetor choke.
62 to 65 are said to be the best. Although on the other hand our own Bruce Burstein drives #137 4360 with no issues. Runs great.

I love them all so you are asking the wrong guy. I never was too crazy about the 59 '7300 unit though. John

[Doug L.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

I'm still a few months from driving my '64 fuelie for the first time, but how bad could they be? There are only 2 adjustment screws, fast and slow idle. No mixture to worry about. I think if the FI unit and electrics are in good condition it should run fine. Guys like John DeGregory can make FI units as good as or better than new. I can't imagine that an hourly employee at GM could have or would have been allowed to spend as much time on a unit as John does when he rebuilds one.

I understand that there were some changes between the '63 and '64 FI units: the addition of the solenoid that makes starting much easier. So '64 and '65 should be the most advanced FI units. As to value, other factors come into play: C1s solid axle vs C2 IRS. '63 first year of C2 and many one of a kind parts. '64 improved FI unit but drum brakes. '65 same improved FI unit and disc brakes.

Here is what John's work looks like.

[Matt L.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

i own an early 64 that has a 63 375R unit on it. it's the 1st and only fuelie i've owned. i have to say that i love it. i agree with jim lockwood. drive them and enjoy them. i probably put 3000 miles on mine this summer. that's how much i enjoy it. sure it has it's quirks but the more you drive them the more you can anticipate them in certain situations. like perculation on hot summer days at a long standing idle in traffic. thats been my only real issue but has been solved with 100LL aviation fuel. i am no expert but i am getting real familar with mine and having bob williams,who rebuilt mine, living 10 minutes up the highway doesn's hurt either. also definetly ask john degregory. i had a 2 hour conversation with john when i 1st got my car and was looking for the correct unit. i can't say enough about john or bob. their knowledge and willingness to help is invaluable.

[Tom P.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

Modifications, can, and have been, made to the earlier units which can improve their performance as well as their dependability. BUT, for the novice FI owner who has miniminal experience with FI, it is best to keep the unit in the original factory configuration.
I have a unit on a SB400 in my 56 that has been considerably modified/upgraded. But I've been working with and rebuilding FI units for about 30yrs and I have become quite familiar with the various units and the changes that have occured through FI development.
The 64-65 units (7380 units) are the culmination of Rochester's efforts with the early FI units and I would NOT suggest making any changes to one of those units. If needed, rebuild it to specs and LEAVE IT ALONE!

For all practical purposes, the unit on my 56 almost looks like a 4520 (57 unit) but functions nearly like a 7380 unit. This is something the average FI joe shouldn't attempt.

[Michael J.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

Thanks for all the valuable tips and insights here guys, I appreciate it. I have had my eye on a '65 FI convertible at an Ohio dealer, and it has been for sale for over 2 years, but I may just go take a look using some of your tips. Thanks again.

[John M.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

Hi Michael,
I own a 65 fuelie, which I bought last fall. I got some good advice here before I bought the car. I have documentation all the way back to the original owner who is still alive. Have talked to the 2nd and 3rd owners and a few subsequent owners so there is no doubt that its for real. The car was in an accident in 1976 and the nose was repaired quite nicely with the ORIGINAL surround and fenders still intact. About the only way that you can for sure tell that it's a fuelie is the emblem holes in original glass. If the other crossed flags were there there will be evidence of the filling of the holes that can't be hidden. Look for those when you look at the car. There is also more in the archives on the drillholes going through the cowl flanges and the lower fenders. If the nose has been redone with original glass then all bets are off.
If it's real, it's a gem; one of 770.
Good luck.
John McRae 30025

[Paul J.]

Re: Advice on buying a fuelie

I have had my eye on a '65 FI convertible at an Ohio dealer, and it has been for sale for over 2 years, but I may just go take a look using some of your tips. Thanks again.

Two years? Sounds like either a pricing problem or non-originality issue or both. I'd be very, very carefull. John mentions a couple of identifiers for mid year Fuelies, and there are some more in the archives.

Paul