Since there has been a lot of activity on the board about early C3's lately, thought I'd ask this question. Is the 1964 Pontiac Banshee the origin of design for the C3? As I understand, John DeLorean was responsible in 1964 for the development of this concept car-the design characteristics are obvious in the influence of the C3. The powers to be thought the car was not right for the Pontiac brand and moved the design under Corvette. I always thought Larry Shinoda's 1965 Mako shark design set the path for the body change, but perhaps not? The change was so radical and modern for the time that I am curious as to who was the visionary behind the design.
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Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
It looks like an Opel GT alsoNCRS 51633 -
Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
When I was a production engineer at Pontiac in 1968, DeLorean was general manager. Prior to that he was Pontiac chief engineer, but I don't recall when he became general manager. It was before I arrived.
While there I inspected the two Banshee prototypes that were inside wooden crates in the engineering back lot.
I believe that DeLorean as chief engineer had a significant hand in the concept of offering a mid-range price sports car using A-body (Tempest) running gear. The base engine was to be the OHC Pontiac six with a 326 CID V-8 optional, and I believe the base price was targeted to be about $3500 - about a thousand dollars lower than Corvette base prices in the late sixties.
The actual design/styling of the body would have been done by the GM Design Center, and in that time frame Bill Mitchell called the shots. I don't know who actually designed the Banshee body, but no doubt Mitchell had a signicant hand in the overall look. He considered sports cars to be his own personal turf. Shinoda was Mitchell's protege, but the overall concept for sport car designs - including all the various Corvette concept and show cars - were Mitchell's. Young designers such as Shinoda did all the detailed design and renderings under Mitchells' close supervision.
I recall when first seeing the Banshee that it looked a lot like the Opel GT, and both were designed in about the same time frame. It would be interesting to known who actually did the detail design work, but I don't know if that individual has ever been identified.
Banshee production was nixed by the "Fourteenth Floor" - GM's top management - because they saw the Banshee as a low cost alternative to the Corvette, and they did not want to erode the Corvette market with a lower-priced alternate product from GM.
It's a shame it was not released for production. Rather than eroding the Corvette market, I think it would have opened up a new market - those who wanted a Corvette, but could not afford one.
DukeComment
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Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
Duke,
I recall the Opel GT retailing for about $3500 in 1968 - seemed a lot for a 4 cylinder car. Was the "Banshee" design sent overseas? Even though Opel was a German GM Division, I think the GT was made by the French.
Did GM production engineers (like you) participate in any of those decisions?
PeterComment
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Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
The Opel GT was probably fairly expensive for what it was, but that made it somewhat exclusive. In fact, the base six-cylinder Banshee would have been priced similarly, and, though I never heard this, it could be a reason why GM management turned down the Banshee in recognition that the Opel GT was GM's answer to the mid-price sports car niche. GM management knew that two-seat sports cars have limited appeal and sales potential, and the market was too small for all divisions to have one, regardless of price range.
It's important to understand that during that era divisions did not "design" their cars. The bodies and interiors were designed by the Art and Colour Section under Harley Earl, later succeeded by Bill Mitchell.
Designs were presented to division executives, and they had some choices among alternative proposals and a say in details, but ultimately Earl and Mitchell had final say.
Once the design was done the basic shapes and dimensions were "thrown over the wall" and the division design and production engineers had to package all the mechanicals within the design envelope of the exterior body dimensions and make the interior look like the various drawings and renderings.
Production engineering was primarily involved with how to build the car including plant tooling, assembly fixtures, parts substitution, and solving production issues such as improperly fitting parts. We also investiged components/parts that had high warranty claims. We had absolutely no input into the basic product design or details other than submitting ECRs to solve production and warranty issues.
I believe GM had a European Design Studio in that era and the Opel GT may have come from there, but I'm still certain that Bill Mitchell had significant input into the overall design concept.
The Banshee design was probably done in the US, but given the similarity in the overall design concepts, they certainly appear to come from the same basic source.
DukeComment
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Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
Really exciting to learn the history and origins of this car and how it may have moved around with the hallowed halls of GM. Thanks Duke. It seems that this one car may have influenced the Opal, Corvette and Firebird but you really don't hear much about it. A sub 3K sports car at that time that was more aligned with the Corvette would have been interesting but I would agree that perhaps if it were too close to the Corvette, consumers would trade down for a similar ride at less money and errode sales of the Vette.
Thanks again for the great info.
PatComment
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Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
Here's another tidbit on the Banshee. It was scheduled to be shown to the public for the first time at the Chicago Auto Show in '66 (or '67), and the day before it was to be shown, some underling dug through the dictionary and sent a note to Frederick Donner (GM Chairman at the time) noting that "Banshee" meant "black screaming death", and questioned the wisdom of having that definition hung on a GM show car.
Donner reacted instantly, and ordered that the car be removed from the stand that night, put away and not be shown anywhere again; the display was cosmetically reworked overnight for another car and in the morning when the show opened, the Banshee was gone, along with any reference to that name.
I remember that one clearly, as two of my guys from the Chevrolet Pilot Line were at the Chicago show assisting Chevrolet Show & Display with vehicle setup (pulling cars down with hidden ratchet straps until Styling said they "looked right"
), and they called me when "the word" came down from the 14th floor to get rid of the Banshee.
Comment
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Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
That battle would be fought again with the Fireo, this time RBS was told the P version was a Chevette, yes, it had that front end. Eventually Chevy would kill that one too.
Duke - as a PE where were you - plant 9??? (& when).Comment
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Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
These stories from behind the scenes are great. Keep 'em coming !! I love hearing from the guys who were really there !! Thanks.Tom Hendricks
Proud Member NCRS #23758
NCM Founding Member # 1143
Corvette Department Manager and
Specialist for 27 years at BUDS Chevrolet.Comment
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Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
During my short stay at Pontiac before going off to grad school, I was assigned to the F-body (Firebird), and spent some time at Lordstown where Firebirds were built on the same line as B-body Chevrolets (never figured that one out), and I spent most of August 1968 on the '69 pilot line build at Van Nuys. I also did some high warranty claim investigations one of which was premature front wheel bearing failure.
I don't remember Plant 9, but I assume it was one of the "hometown" plants in Pontiac. My roommate was a tooling engineer at the foundry and he gave me a good tour of the foundry and block transfer line.
I also remember that the damned foundry emitted this grit that got into car paint and was very difficult to get out. Those were the days before clay bars.
Then there was Pontiac's tunnel port engine, and the Firebird with a L-88 and Firestone racing tires on American mags that was in and out of the engineering garage between trips to Woodward Avenue, but those are other stories.
DukeLast edited by Duke W.; September 27, 2011, 06:59 PM.Comment
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Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
Duke,
I remember when the water tower went up across the street. Wasn't a year later it was rust brown. And yes, that iron was magnetic and burned its way through the paint. Polishing would not get that out, you had to use oxalic acid and buy was that fun. At night they really opened the stacks as who was going to see it, my 1st years there were on nights and that white C3 had rust freckles. The place is a ghost town now with half the plants torn down.Comment
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Re: John DeLorean-Father of the C3?
It's interesting to read the comments from the late '60's and contrast them with the personal observations of the initial "Ed Cole team" in the '50's - at the birth of the '55 and its V8.
Russ Sander's indicated that there were less than 100 engineers assigned to Chevrolet when Ed Cole came on board; two years later, there were 2200..... and it wasn't just #s....it was folks who knew what they were doing.... the 1995 Performance Industry celebration of 50 Years of the SBC was the brainchild of Smokey Yunick, who generally speaking, was not a corporate engineer fan - but he recognized what Ed Cole and his boys has done.....and was awed by it.Comment
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