Muncie Countergear

[Barth C.]

Hello,

I just tore down the wide ratio Muncie 4-speed out of my '66 roadster and have a question.

The countergear has the anti-rattle plate assembly but it looks to be damaged. I have heard that this plate can be removed and the countergear used without it.

Anyone aware of this modification and how to do it? I'm trying to save the cost of a new countergear.

thanks and regards

[Joe L.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

Hello,

I just tore down the wide ratio Muncie 4-speed out of my '66 roadster and have a question.

The countergear has the anti-rattle plate assembly but it looks to be damaged. I have heard that this plate can be removed and the countergear used without it.

Anyone aware of this modification and how to do it? I'm trying to save the cost of a new countergear.

thanks and regards

Barth------


What you have here is a GM #3884687 countergear. That gear was used for only the 1966 model year and, perhaps, very early 1967. It was replaced by GM #3905463 for the 1967-74 model years. I believe the latter gear had no anti-rattle plate. If not, then its successor, GM #357236, had no anti-rattle plate.

If I were you, I'd call Larry Fischer at D&L Transmissions and see what you need to do to convert your gear. I am very confident that he'll know the answer.

https://www.muncie4speed.net

Make sure you get the .net right or you'll get another company.

[Ronald L.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

I would also check the e-flea market as selling the parts of a Muncie is more popular than selling the unit complete.

[Tom P.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

REMOVE THE ANTI-RATTLE PLATE! PERIOD!
Simply carefully grind off the heads of the rivets and the plate and spring will come off. After the plate has been removed, you have two choices. You can carefully grind down the remainder of the protruding rivets until they are even with the front face of the cluster gear (counter gear, if you prefer that term). OR, using the appropriate size punch, you can drive out the remainder of the rivets. I personally prefer grinding down the remainder of the rivets and leave them in the gear. The rivets are so tight in their holes, that no, they are not going to vibrate out, but if it makes you more comfortable, you can drive them out.
By the way, I've been rebuilding 4spds (mainly Muncies) for about 45yrs and I buy ALL my parts from Larry Fischer. Larry, others who build Muncies, and I have discussed removal of this plate MANY times and all are in agreement that the plate should be removed.
If you will closely examine the teeth on the input gear, there is most likely some obvious wear (small grooves in the teeth) where the plate has been contacting the teeth over the years.

[William P.]

Hey Tom

Hi Tom, I have a muncie question . My 71 M22 makes a noise in first gear that sounds like there is a tooth chipped , it usually goes away when the tranny is fully warmed up. I tore it down last winter and could not find anything wrong so I put it back together . The noise is still there.
Any thoughts on this would be helpful.

Thanks in advance.
Bill

[Tom P.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

Bill,
Without having my hands and eyes on each and every gear, it's difficult to diagnose what/where the source of the noise/clicking is coming from.
All you can do is disassemble the tranny and very closely examine each and every tooth on each and every gear-----------------INCLUDING THE REVERSE IDLER GEARS! Remember, even when reverse is NOT engaged, the reverse idler gear is still spinning on the cluster gear. AND, the reverse idler gear is RIGHT NEXT TO 1st GEAR! I point this out, because I have known of (ULTRA RARE) of 1st gear and the reverse idler gear making an ever so minute contact with each other. I've never known of any resultant damage, only some faint noise.
Soooooooooo, no I can't pinpoint what may be the cause of the noise, and all you can do is a teardown and thoroughly examine every tooth as well as bearings and bearing surfaces (such as the insides of the cluster and reverse idler gears). Also, examine the front/rear faces of the cluster gear where contact is made with the thrust washers.

[Domenic T.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

I agree with Tom on the removal of the anti rattle gear as I took them off also with no problems.

Also Bill & TOM,

Another place to look fot a freak noise in the lower gear range is the 1st/2nd slider ring on the syncro clutch.

I found a 3rd/ 4th ring there that only rubbed when in the lower gear.
Back in the 60's when I started doing them only the parts guy knew there was a difference.

The good news is that it can be seen with the shift cover off.

Tom, I am sure you have seen the small difference in the thickness on the edge of the sliders.

Bill, I would take a pic but I am not at the shop. The 1st / 2nd can be used in either place but the 3rd/ 4th with the built up ring can only be used on the 3rd/4th.

Thans will work OK if they are wrong but you get the noise in the lower gear and it is very hard to find.

I found my first one back in the 60's that made noise while iI was in the parts book by a different #. I had to take a hard look at the slider then it popped out and was easy to see.

Just another place to look.

DOM

[Tom P.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

In regards to the thickness of the edges of the 1-2 and 3-4 sliders, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL of the replacement sliders today are the thin version.
I never knew why the thick vs thin difference existed on the sliders. They are physically interchangeable, but as mentioned, the thick one was only used on the 3-4 gear side of the main shaft.
Also, for several years, there has been a different slider available, known as the Tork Loc slider. This is an excellent part to use in a tranny with a lot of miles on it, ESPECIALLY if the tranny OCASSIONALLY pops out of gear (such as 2nd or 3rd) during decelleration. On MOST of the rebuilds that I do, I usually replace the original slider with the Tork Loc sliders. It just assures a more secure engagement of the selected gear.

[William P.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

Thanks for your input guys, I guess it will have to come back out this winter .

Bill

[Jack H.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

...
Another place to look fot a freak noise in the lower gear range is the 1st/2nd slider ring on the syncro clutch.

I found a 3rd/ 4th ring there that only rubbed when in the lower gear.
Back in the 60's when I started doing them only the parts guy knew there was a difference.
...
DOM

In regards to the thickness of the edges of the 1-2 and 3-4 sliders, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL of the replacement sliders today are the thin version.
I never knew why the thick vs thin difference existed on the sliders. They are physically interchangeable, but as mentioned, the thick one was only used on the 3-4 gear side of the main shaft..
...

Sorry to take a tangent here, but...

Were all factory original sliders different 1/2 vs 3/4 or did this change in some model year such that they were both the same from factory also???

[Tom P.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

Jack,
Yes, the thick-thin sliders did change and became all the same (thin) sometime in the 60s, but unfortunately, I don't know exactly when.

Now, for those of you who tear into your own Muncies and are wondering what the heck we're talking about with a thick vs thin syncro slider, here ya go.






And for those of you who may not be familiar with the Tork Loc sliders, here's a comparrison. Notice the additional notches cut into the splines of the Tork Loc slider. When a gear is engaged by the slider, these additional notches help to "pull" the slider tighter into the small engagement teeth of the selected gear. Thus, more securely keeping the gear engaged and preventing it from poping out of gear during decelleration.

[Eric D.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

Barth, Remove the anti-rattle plate, because when the rivets heads wear thru, the plate spin free against the front of the main case and can destroy the front thrust surface(seen this tooo many times)...

Also I've seen the rivets vibrate out of the cluster gear and do major damage, so I always remove the rivets...

Bill, The noise in 1st gear you are hearing could be the reverse idler making contact with the outer edge of the 1-2 slider when trans is in 1st gear(seen this tooo many time also)...

Hope this helps... Eric

[Barth C.]

Re: Muncie Countergear

Thanks to everyone for the information.

I have removed the plate and relegated it to the scrap pile.

best regards