Biofuel

[John H.]

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp...s_element& Interesting statement at almost end of story that biofuel is a big contributor to environmental pollution. It won't go away, but subsidies may dry up. People I know who have driven a flexfuel Chevy have told me that that the fuel mileage is lousy. Stands to reason as there is less energy in the fuel.

[Gary H.]

Re: Biofuel

John,
Interesting article that repeats many of the things we continue to hear about biofuels and ethanol. I agree with elimination of subsidies, but my consulting work in the transportation fuels area convinces me that we won't see the end of ethanol any time soon. Most US ethanol producers are able to make money without the "blender's credit". Also, the Renewable Fuel Standard (part of the 2007 Energy Bill) mandates 36 billion gallons of biofuel by 2022. Although corn ethanol is limited to 15B gallons, as the article points out, there isn't much else coming along to take its place. Also several things in the article that are wrong - only 10% of US corn crop used for human food, the rest for cattle feed, and ethanol production uses only the starch portioni of the kernel, leaving the protein for cattle feed in tact - corn and other commodity prices are higher primarily due to fuel costs - fertlizer use is not unique to ethanol and would be used to produce animal feed anyway - modern ethanol production reduces carbon emissions by 20 to 50% compared to gasoline.

We're chasing carbon emission reductions with programs that range from fuel economy standards to light bulbs, many more expensive than ethanol. In my opinion, carbon emission reductions are nonsense, a reason to regulate every aspect of our lives. I can make some sense of energy conservation and reduction in petroleum fuel use. Some amount of ethanol use may make sense in that context.

[Terry M.]

Re: Biofuel

I don't understand how ethanol helps energy conservation and less petroleum use when adding it to automotive fuel causes one to burn more fuel to go from point A to point B. I understand there may be less emissions if a modest amount of ethanol is added to automotive fuel, but the continued pressure to add more and more as well as the continuing subsidies would lead any rational person to think that the addition of ethanol to automotive fuel is more about money for certain special interest groups than it is about the public good.

[Dick W.]

Re: Biofuel

John,
. Most US ethanol producers are able to make money without the "blender's credit". .

Know anyone that wants to buy a ethanol plant I know where there are a few that have gone bankrupt.

[Gary H.]

Re: Biofuel

It's true that fuel economy in mpg is lower using ethanol blends since the energy content of ethanol is only about 70% of gasoline. The basis of comparison depends on the objective. If the objective is reducing petroleum energy use, then ethanol, on a life cycle basis consumes less fossil energy. It consumes more total energy, but a substantial amount is "renewable" energy. When comparing different fuels and propulsion systems like hybrids and pure electrics, mpg is probably not the right metric. Life cycle energy use in BTU/mile or something like that is probably better.

[Gary H.]

Re: Biofuel

True enough, but some like POET and ADM are doing pretty well.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Biofuel

I don't understand how ethanol helps energy conservation and less petroleum use when adding it to automotive fuel causes one to burn more fuel to go from point A to point B. I understand there may be less emissions if a modest amount of ethanol is added to automotive fuel, but the continued pressure to add more and more as well as the continuing subsidies would lead any rational person to think that the addition of ethanol to automotive fuel is more about money for certain special interest groups than it is about the public good.

this is a plan for the oil compnies to sell more fuel because as the MPG go down so they sell more gallons of fuel to travel the same distance,so they make more money.

[Mel H.]

Re: Biofuel

John,
Interesting article that repeats many of the things we continue to hear about biofuels and ethanol. I agree with elimination of subsidies, but my consulting work in the transportation fuels area convinces me that we won't see the end of ethanol any time soon. Most US ethanol producers are able to make money without the "blender's credit". Also, the Renewable Fuel Standard (part of the 2007 Energy Bill) mandates 36 billion gallons of biofuel by 2022. Although corn ethanol is limited to 15B gallons, as the article points out, there isn't much else coming along to take its place. Also several things in the article that are wrong - only 10% of US corn crop used for human food, the rest for cattle feed, and ethanol production uses only the starch portioni of the kernel, leaving the protein for cattle feed in tact - corn and other commodity prices are higher primarily due to fuel costs - fertlizer use is not unique to ethanol and would be used to produce animal feed anyway - modern ethanol production reduces carbon emissions by 20 to 50% compared to gasoline.

We're chasing carbon emission reductions with programs that range from fuel economy standards to light bulbs, many more expensive than ethanol. In my opinion, carbon emission reductions are nonsense, a reason to regulate every aspect of our lives. I can make some sense of energy conservation and reduction in petroleum fuel use. Some amount of ethanol use may make sense in that context.

Are many broad misperceptions about ethanol, but Gary did a nice job in his comments. Its not all negative.

[Paul J.]

Re: Biofuel

Know anyone that wants to buy a ethanol plant I know where there are a few that have gone bankrupt.

I'm working with two ethanol projects right now, but like the other 5 that I've worked, either thier financing is suspect or they don't trust the market enough to make that first step and start construction. These projects are not driven by the free market, and until the government forces ethanol down the publics' throat, there will be very little investment made in ethanol. The present subsidies are not enough, and gas is still under $4.00 a gallon.

All alternative energy scenarios, like ethanol, biodiesel, chicken waste, municipal waste, and wood have one common problem. A guaranteed long term flow of a usable feed product. Couple this to handling issues with the feed product and increased emissions with making the supposedly "green" energy and it's not hard to see why the lending institutions keep these projects at arm's length. This is just my opinion.

[Michael W.]

Re: Biofuel

Know anyone that wants to buy a ethanol plant I know where there are a few that have gone bankrupt.

Did the revenooers catch up with them?

[Joe L.]

Re: Biofuel

All------


Biofuel something new? ALL fuel is biofuel. It's just that a lot of it was created by biomass that lived a long time ago. And, all of it was created by photosynthesis, the same process that's the basis for biofuel production today.

[Paul J.]

Re: Biofuel

All------


Biofuel something new? ALL fuel is biofuel. It's just that a lot of it was created by biomass that lived a long time ago. And, all of it was created by photosynthesis, the same process that's the basis for biofuel production today.

Joe, there is an official government definition just like the word "green", but I get your point. It's like the term "organic vegetables". They're all organic, right?

Paul