Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engine? - NCRS Discussion Boards

Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engine?

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  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15641

    Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engine?

    [This is my answer - slightly edited - to a question asked in a thread last week: "Engine oil article". Since the article addressed API service categories and didn't go into base stock oils in any detail, I think the subject deserves it's own thread]

    The first thing you must understand is that the legal definition of "synthetic" is very broad, and the technical definition is vague. It has become mostly a marketing term and cannot be relied on to imply specifics about any product. Virtually any automotive fluid that is not derived from crude oil using only traditional refining processes going back to the 1920s can be called "synthetic". This includes fluids such as ethylene glycol based antifreeze and any brake fluid - both conventional glycol ether based or silicone.

    Synthetic engine oil base stocks have two main advantages over traditionally refined engine oil base stocks:

    1. Wider viscosity range without the use of viscosity index (VI) improvers, which can degrade with use, narrowing the viscosity range.

    2. Greater oxidation resistance, which allows higher mileage between changes.

    It is NOT "more slippery" than conventional oil.

    It does NOT "cling" better to engine surfaces.

    The above are two common internet myths.

    The API currently segregates engine oil base stocks into five groups based on the type of refining process/oxidation resistance as defined in the API 1509 document and appendices that you can download from the API web site.

    Group I: "Conventional" base stocks derived from crude oil distillation and solvent extraction processes that go back to the earliest days of crude oil refining.

    Group II: Adds "hydroprocessing" , developed in the 1970s, to break up ring molecules and remove undesirable elements such as sulfur yielding more long chain saturated hydrocarbons, which means molecules consisting of only carbon and hydrogen atoms with only single bonds - no double bonds.

    Group III: Additional hydroprocessing to remove additional undesirable elements as above resulting in a higher percentage of "pure" single bond chain hydrocarbons.

    Group IV: Uses a complex petrochemical process to produce polyalpha olefins (PAOs).

    Group V: Uses a complex petrochemical process to produce esters.

    As one goes up in group number, the resulting base stock has wider viscosity index and more resistance to oxidation.

    Group IV and V were developed for jet/gas turbine engines, which have no internal cooling and expose the lubricating oil to more heat resulting in higher oil temperatures, so lubricating oil requires very high oxidation resistance.

    Group IV and/or V was the base used for the original Mobil 1 in the seventies.

    In the eighties (or maybe it was the early nineties), Castrol introduced a "synthetic" engine oil using less expensive Group II and III base stocks, which allowed them to underprice Mobil.

    Mobil sued Castrol asking the court to order Castol to not call their oil "synthetic", but Mobil lost the case, which forced them to reformulate Mobil 1 using Group II and III base stocks in order to remain price competitive.

    As API service specifications evolved, the oxidation resistance requirement has become more strick, so even "conventional" engine oils that consist of mostly Group I base stocks have some Group II and III base stocks added to meet the current oxidation requirements. This applies to both S and C-category oils.

    Base oils blended from Group II and III base stocks, which are both considered "synthetic" and "oil service life monitors" are what allow modern cars (like modern Corvettes) to accumulate 10-15K miles of daily use before the oil needs changing, however, for warranty coverage, GM still requires at least an annual change, regardless of mileage.

    I generally recommend annual oil changes for vintage cars that accumulate a few hundred to a few thousand miles per year, but if the engine is tight, the PCV system effective, long enough trips to allow the oil to fully warm up, and the car is kept in a garage to protect it from condensing humidity, I don't see a problem going two years if only a few hundred miles are driven annually and the oil doesn't darken significantly in the first year.

    Today's conventional base stock blends have much more oxidation resistance than when our cars were new, so the oil doesn't degrade as fast.

    Also, since we typically only start and drive our vintage cars in mild weather we don't need a OW-40 engine oil that is suitable for every climate from arctic winters to tropical summers; 15W-40 is more than adequate for moderate to high ambient temperatures.

    Based on the above facts, the question is: Is there a benefit to using "synthetic" oil given that it costs two to three times as much as conventional oil for either a freshly restored vintage engine or a high mileage original engine?

    Now that everyone has the facts, each should be able to answer the question for themself.

    Duke
    Last edited by Duke W.; August 1, 2011, 07:16 PM.
  • Harry L.
    Very Frequent User
    • December 22, 2008
    • 370

    #2
    Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

    I live in PA. and I drive my 66 vette all winter, as long as the road is dry. My car is kept in a garage that could go down to 40 degrees. Is there a CJ-4 oil, that would be better for me to use in winter? DUTCH

    Comment

    • Duke W.
      Beyond Control Poster
      • January 1, 1993
      • 15641

      #3
      Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

      The following quote is from the engine oil article. The link is in the referenced "Engine oil article" thread, but I'll repeat it again here for convenience. The article starts on page 3 of the pdf.





      Duke

      Comment

      • Harry L.
        Very Frequent User
        • December 22, 2008
        • 370

        #4
        Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

        Thank You, Dutch

        Comment

        • Clem Z.
          Expired
          • January 1, 2006
          • 9427

          #5
          Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

          if engines are rebuilt using the newest designed seals,rings and gaskets why not use syn engine oil ??

          Comment

          • Michael W.
            Expired
            • April 1, 1997
            • 4290

            #6
            Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

            Conversely, WHY use it?

            Comment

            • Larry M.
              Extremely Frequent Poster
              • January 1, 1992
              • 2688

              #7
              Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

              Originally posted by Duke Williams (22045)
              The following quote is from the engine oil article. The link is in the referenced "Engine oil article" thread, but I'll repeat it again here for convenience. The article starts on page 3 of the pdf.





              Duke
              As a testamonial to what Duke stated......I grew up in Chicago and drove my cars winter and summer. Back then we used 20W-20 weight oil for the winter and 30 weight oil for the summer. Never had an oil (viscosity) related issue during the many years I lived there.

              If the concern is still there, go "on-line' and order a case of 10W-30 Rotella (or equivalent) oil. NAPA may also be able to order for you if you ask them. This will work down to 0 F or below.....which is probably colder than you or your Corvette want to drive in.

              Larry

              Comment

              • Clem Z.
                Expired
                • January 1, 2006
                • 9427

                #8
                Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

                Originally posted by Michael Ward (29001)
                Conversely, WHY use it?
                with modern pistons the piston to wall is much tighter and using a 5W-30 syn oil would be better lubrication that 20W-40 on cold start ups. also for short trips which most older corvettes are used for the ability of syn oil to not oxidize as fast would also be a advantage. it also keeps the engines free of sludge as my 23 year old silverado who had mobil1 since new is a clean as a pin inside the rocker covers. the first time i changed mobil1 i could not get over how dirty the oil was from a new engine so i called mobil and the engineer there said that is because the oil was doing it job keeping the inside of the engine clean by holding the dirt in suspension and coming out at the oil change.

                Comment

                • Clem Z.
                  Expired
                  • January 1, 2006
                  • 9427

                  #9
                  Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

                  Originally posted by Clem Zahrobsky (45134)
                  with modern pistons the piston to wall is much tighter and using a 5W-30 syn oil would be better lubrication that 20W-40 on cold start ups. also for short trips which most older corvettes are used for the ability of syn oil to not oxidize as fast would also be a advantage. it also keeps the engines free of sludge as my 23 year old silverado who had mobil1 since new is a clean as a pin inside the rocker covers. the first time i changed mobil1 i could not get over how dirty the oil was from a new engine so i called mobil and the engineer there said that is because the oil was doing it job keeping the inside of the engine clean by holding the dirt in suspension and coming out at the oil change.
                  would also be good for a few more HP if that turns you on.

                  Comment

                  • Michael W.
                    Expired
                    • April 1, 1997
                    • 4290

                    #10
                    Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

                    Originally posted by Clem Zahrobsky (45134)
                    with modern pistons the piston to wall is much tighter and using a 5W-30 syn oil would be better lubrication that 20W-40 on cold start ups. also for short trips which most older corvettes are used for the ability of syn oil to not oxidize as fast would also be a advantage. it also keeps the engines free of sludge as my 23 year old silverado who had mobil1 since new is a clean as a pin inside the rocker covers. the first time i changed mobil1 i could not get over how dirty the oil was from a new engine so i called mobil and the engineer there said that is because the oil was doing it job keeping the inside of the engine clean by holding the dirt in suspension and coming out at the oil change.
                    You switch subjects and compare apples and oranges more often than your FI unit twin brother.

                    The topic is rarely-driven vintage engines, not modern engines in daily drivers nor is it oil viscosity debates. Re-read Dukes post above regarding oil change frequency.

                    Comment

                    • Clem Z.
                      Expired
                      • January 1, 2006
                      • 9427

                      #11
                      Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

                      Originally posted by Michael Ward (29001)
                      You switch subjects and compare apples and oranges more often than your FI unit twin brother.

                      The topic is rarely-driven vintage engines, not modern engines in daily drivers nor is it oil viscosity debates. Re-read Dukes post above regarding oil change frequency.
                      my point is that most all engines out there in restored cars have been rebuilt with newer parts with closer tolerances. you would get better lubrication to the moving parts when starting up the cold engine to move it out of the trailer with 5W-30 syn than 15W-40 regular oil as the thinner syn oil would move thu the engine faster help eliminate "dry" starts which would cause premature wear after setting for weeks or maybe months with out being started.

                      Comment

                      • Duke W.
                        Beyond Control Poster
                        • January 1, 1993
                        • 15641

                        #12
                        Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

                        5W-30 is S-category oil. In mild weather I don't think 5W-40 is any better than 15W-40 from a cold start standpoint.

                        Like Mike said, my recommendations are focused at vintage cars that are actually driven occasionally and acculumate a few hundred to a few thousand miles per year.

                        Trailer queen service is one the the worst things you can do to an engine, but they probably won't wear out going to a handful of events per year accumulating a few miles on and off the trailer.

                        Sludging should not be a problem, but that assumes that the car is fully warmed up when driven - say at least 30 minutes of run time.

                        My SWC's engine was amazinglly clean inside when I disassembled it at 115K miles. Engine oils back in the sixties were no where near as good as today, but I changed the oil every 3000 miles or 3 months per GM's recommendation and the filter every other change.

                        Modern conventional oils will easily go a year or 5000-7500 miles as long as short trips aren't the rule and the engine has a good PCV system, which most vintage Corvettes do. For C1's that don't have PCV systems I recommend adapting the California PCV components used on '61's and '62's.

                        Duke

                        Comment

                        • Ron H.
                          Expired
                          • July 31, 1993
                          • 96

                          #13
                          Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

                          With a 327/365 L76, that was never apart, I was told by 2 separate engine builders NOT to use synthetic oil. The reason is different from most. They said the reason is that it has much higher detergent cleaning properties that older seals, gaskets, rings, etc. arent crazy about.

                          Comment

                          • Duke W.
                            Beyond Control Poster
                            • January 1, 1993
                            • 15641

                            #14
                            Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

                            ...another myth. Detergency has nothing to do with the base oil. It's part of the additive package and the API detergency tests are the same regardless of the base oil blend, so both synthetic and conventional base oil blends have essentially the same detergent additive package.

                            Here's another myth: Diesel oil has too much detergent. Detergents can increase the propensity for foaming, but that's why anti-foaming agents are part of the additive package. And remember, we're not talking about NASCAR engines that run 9000 revs all day long. We're talking about vintage Corvettes that are road driven and only occasionally see the redline. In fact, most probably haven't seen the redline for years!

                            Many claim that synthetics leak out of older engines more than conventional base stocks. The evidence is anecdotal.

                            Duke

                            Comment

                            • Alexander C.
                              Expired
                              • June 20, 2010
                              • 353

                              #15
                              Re: Synthetic or conventional engine oil - which should you use for your vintage engi

                              After breaking in an engine I use Redline in all of my vehicles including my '56. It a polyol ester base which help ensure no burning or deposits in the ring lands. I especially like it in my Ducati superbikes over the years. It also of course has all of the addititves already which are needed for flat tappet cams. I buy it in gallons form Jegs. I also use their manual trans fuild in my 3-spd and their gear oil in my rear diff.

                              I've tried AMSoil and Royal Purple over the years but RP left deposits and AMSoil didn't provide some of the other benifits that a polyol ester base oil can.

                              Comment

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