European Oil Classifications

[Richard M.]

Here in the US we have the API. I've been discussing oils with some Europeans lately, and they have concerns with the Zinc and Phosphorus contents in European oils.

I've explained our API CJ-4 oils are the recommended oils, and have forwarded Duke's articles and referenced the latest update as well......Here

For all of you outside the US, what oil are you using? Do you have a equivalent to API CJ-4 for oils manufactured outside the US?

I found some European oil document info but no info regarding Zinc content.

ACEA Oil Classifications

Rich

[Michael W.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

This might help

http://www.oilspecifications.org/ilsac.php

[Duke W.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

As a general rule the formulation and test requirements of other standards bodies in Europe and Asia are pretty close to API for the same type of service, so in absence of detailed research, my recommendation for vintage engines in other parts of the world would be to use an available HD diesel engine oil, same as here in the US.

I noticed in the pdf you included that E6 has a P limit of .08%, but there is no limit for E7, and the pdf lists nothing about E9 since it is relatively new.

Here in the USA, some major marketers have detailed spec sheets of their engine oil products available on the Web- like Chevron has for their Delo product line - and major brands offered in othe parts of the world might offer the same including P limits, if any exist, so a bit of googling would be in order.

I believe ILSAC certifications only apply to gasoline engines, so I would not recommend any engine oil for vintage engines that only carries ILSAC certfication.

Duke

[Jephrey S.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

I actually buy American oil at the PX, so I am not sure.
I run "European Formula" Mobil 1 0W-30 in another vehicle to meet warranty requirements but it is actually from the US market.

I see all the normal name brands in the local stores, but at 18 euro (currently just shy of $27) a liter for most of the synthetics I have never been interested enough to actually read a label. I will continue to stimulate the local economy with beer purchases and get my oil from the PX!

[Richard M.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

I've done a little more research. ILSAC barely mentions Zinc. What was very interesting, and likely quite misleading, is their statement about GF-5 spec oils......"Introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to provide......." Those with "older vehicles" may think it's alright, but clearly it is not. The P content is 0.06% maximum, and based on my interpretation of reading the ILSAC GF-5 Spec, it does not describe the PPM rating of ZDDP.

Also, this document, located at gf-5.com has even more misleading information regarding ZDDP. They talk about it's purpose, but make no mention of it's content in oils classified GF-5.

Rich
edit.....also interesting reading regarding ZDDP technology of the ILSAC GF-5 & API SM specs here....

http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/SAE_2007-01-1990.pdf

[Dick W.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

Rich, Paccar (parent company of KW and Peterbilt) is importing their Euro engines to the US for installation in their trucks. They are specifying the same oil as Rotella 15-40 or equvilent

[Duke W.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

I've done a little more research. ILSAC barely mentions Zinc. What was very interesting, and likely quite misleading, is their statement about GF-5 spec oils......"Introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to provide......." Those with "older vehicles" may think it's alright, but clearly it is not. The P content is 0.06% maximum, and based on my interpretation of reading the ILSAC GF-5 Spec, it does not describe the PPM rating of ZDDP.

Also, this document, located at gf-5.com has even more misleading information regarding ZDDP. They talk about it's purpose, but make no mention of it's content in oils classified GF-5.

Rich
edit.....also interesting reading regarding ZDDP technology of the ILSAC GF-5 & API SM specs here....
http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/SAE_2007-01-1990.pdf

Everyone needs to get something straight. The concentration of ZDDP is NEVER SPECIFIED. Phosphorous concentration is the indicator of ZDDP.

Oil analysis is done via spectrgraphic analysis, which breaks down the oil and additives to their molecular components, and then the concentration of certain molecules is measured. Zn can be measured, but there is no specification. However, as a rule of thumb, it's usually 100-150 ppm higher than P. I explained all this in the oil article, but from the feedback I get, nobody gets it, and I don't see how I can make it more clear!

The P min/max for API SM and SN is .06/.08%, and believe the lastest ILSAC spec is the same, but what difference does it make?

You should not be using API (primary i.e. first listed spec) SM or SN or ILSAC GF-5 in vintage engines with sliding surface valve train components, PERIOD!!!

Duke

[Domenic T.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

Duke,
No offence intended but I think one reason that some of us don't get it is that it is explained in acronyms.

Now if your in oil they mean one thing and in other areas they mean Another.

One needs the ledgend of acronyms to understand.

I went to school on a jet with the glass panel (instruments), TV tubes.

There were 13 pages of acronyms, they even had a 3 letter acronym for a 4 letter word.

Acronyms to some of us is like a foreign language.

Again, with all respect, that may be where some of us are getting lost.

DOM

Everyone needs to get something straight. The concentration of ZDDP is NEVER SPECIFIED. Phosphorous concentration is the indicator of ZDDP.

Oil analysis is done via spectrgraphic analysis, which breaks down the oil and additives to their molecular components, and then the concentration of certain molecules is measured. Zn can be measured, but there is no specification. However, as a rule of thumb, it's usually 100-150 ppm higher than P. I explained all this in the oil article, but from the feedback I get, nobody gets it, and I don't see how I can make it more clear!

The P min/max for API SM and SN is .06/.08%, and believe the lastest ILSAC spec is the same, but what difference does it make?

You should not be using API (primary i.e. first listed spec) SM or SN or ILSAC GF-5 in vintage engines with sliding surface valve train components, PERIOD!!!

Duke

[Richard M.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

Duke, Okay, my misinterpretation. I'm sure some others have been confused by this data. It can be confusing to some of us non-SAE folks, like me.

However, I have seen many marketing ads discussing their PPM levels of ZDDP, expressed as ....."containing up to 1200 PPM which is recommended for flat-tappet engines".

So........with that, I can safely say that what I read is that the GF-5 spec oil "P" level of ZDDP concentration is 0.06%, which can also be expressed as 600 PPM. Correct?


Rich

[Duke W.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

Duke, Okay, my misinterpretation. I'm sure some others have been confused by this data. It can be confusing to some of us non-SAE folks, like me.

However, I have seen many marketing ads discussing their PPM levels of ZDDP, expressed as ....."containing up to 1200 PPM which is recommended for flat-tappet engines".

So........with that, I can safely say that what I read is that the GF-5 spec oil "P" level of ZDDP concentration is 0.06%, which can also be expressed as 600 PPM. Correct?


Rich

Never trust marketing/advertising information. True technical information for the same product is often available on the Web if you do a little searching.

If you see ZDDP expressed in ppm should now know it's BS. Maybe they mean P, but if they can't get it straight, how can you trust what they say?

Yes, .06% is the same as 600 ppm. I explained this in the oil article: .01% is 100 ppm and you can linearly proportion from there, so 0.1% is 1000 ppm.

As far as acronyms are concerned, its part of our culture - medicine, technology..., we have to deal with it everyday. People who aren't into vintage Corvettes have no idea what we are talking when we mention RPOs and SHP engines.

If one wants to understand engine oil you have to add a handful more acronyms and aphanumeric symbols to the hunderds that are probably already in your vocabulary.

Again, go back and read the oil article. In that article I did not mention ILSAC (International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee) because ILSAC does not certify HD diesel oils in North America, but ILSAC certification levels are contained on most API S-catergory oils. I didn't want to get into ILSAC certifications because they are irrelevent to our needs for vintage engines.

The ILSAC P specification is not .06%. That's the minimum. The maximum is .08%, so the spec is the range of 600-800 ppm, which is the same as API SM and SN. The CJ-4 P spec is 1200 ppm maximum. There is no minimum, but most manufactures spec sheets (not advertising) specify the P analysis in the range of 1100-1200, which is the same as S-category oils prior to SL, when the first maximum P spec (.10% maximum) went into effect.

If I see one more Web post proclaiming: "They took all the zinc out of diesel oil", I'm going to scream!

Duke

[Carl B.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

Don't do that I'm learning a lot of valuable info from you Carl

[Michael F.]

Re: European Oil Classifications

Duke, sucks sometimes when you know and explain it and others can't seem to get it, teachers experience this all the time....hang in there since you can only lead a horse to water, not make it drink, same for us car guys In time the light will come on for those in the dark