Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
I recently tuned up (Plugs/wires/cap/rotor/ coil) my 1963 327/340 and it was runnng fairly well with a little hesitation and the occasional backfire. Drove it 50 miles this past week to move the car to a different location and the car ran well. When I drove the car this morning, after it warmed up the timing went way out and the car had a very distinct miss in it. When I went to check the timing with a timing light I noticed a few yellow sparks flying up from the water pump fly wheel area! (Like a pully was rubbing against something). I got the timing back in line and the sparking has stopped. Never saw or heard of this before. Car still has much more back firing and is not running smoothly at all. Not sure if these issues are related or not. Any advice would be very much appreciated. Thanks.
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Richard------
When you say "flywheel" area, I assume you are referring to the harmonic balancer since the flywheel is nowhere near the waterpump.
I think you have some component in the belt driven system that has failed or is in the process of failing. The first thing I'd do is to remove the belts and check all of the belt driven components, especially the waterpump and balancer. The balancer ring may be loose or about to separate from the elastomer and hub. I'd also check the balancer pulley attaching bolts.In Appreciation of John Hinckley -
Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Joe,
Thanks. Yes I meant the harmonic balancer. I was told when I bought the car it was the orignial harmonic balancer (for what that may be worth). Could this be causing the timing / rough running / back firing I am experiencing? Or do you think these are 2 different problems?Comment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Richard------
I don't see how the balancer could be DIRECTLY causing the problems you describe but if the ring has slipped, it could be causing your INDICATED timing to be off enough to cause such problems.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Joe,
Thanks. I understand your point. Is this a project an intermediate mechanic with a set of jack stands on a garage floor can tackle? Or is this more complicated?Comment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Richard,
If the harmonic balancer is bad you need to replace it like Joe said. If it comes loose the could be allot of damage. You will probably need a puller to get it off.Comment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Joseph,
Thanks for the post. Going to try to look at it today. How does the Harmonic Balancer go bad? What should I be looking for beyound being lose?Comment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
I think you may have multiple issues going on.
The sparks are likely a pulley hitting something it shouldn't. I think that's been covered above. Also maybe a bad WP bearing? Grab the fan and rock it back & forth to check the bearing.
The timing?.........
I once had a similar "self-adjusting-timing" issue on our '63 300hp. The tach drive gear in the distributor was worn, which caused it to jam and turned the distributor, obviously throwing the timing off.
A jammed tach-drive gear will turn the distributor it even if the clamp is tight. If it appears that your timing "self-adjusts", remove the gear from the distributor, re-adjust timing and retest.
RichComment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Thanks for all the posts. Now with the engine cool, I was able to get into it for a closer look. The back of the pulley (towards the firewall) on the water pump which has a belt going to the alternator (and would drive PS, but my car does not have PS) is rubbing on the front (face) of the harmonic balancer. The space between the back of the back of the pulley and the face of the harmonic balancer is paper thin. Both surfaces (back of pulley) and (face of harmonic balancer) are shinny and the pulley is a little nicked. Is this a matter of just tightening down the harmonic balancer ( I believe the HB is held on with a bolt on the 327/340, not just pressed on), or is something larger going on here?Comment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Chances greater that your water pump is failing rather than a problem with harmonic balancer.Comment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Richard,
Check the pulleys for cracks between the bolt holes.
Also the harmonic balancer should have the timing line and the keyway in line with each other. If not it rotated out of position.
As simple a bad ignition condensor can cause bad ignition.
Bad points and/or gap is another possibility. Bad or disconnected plug wires cause big misses.
These are all simple checks to make. Do the easy stuff first.Comment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Richard, I agree with Rich. I think you're dealing with multiple issues and you've been given some good advice. One other way to check the water pump bearing (on anything but Fords) is to listen to it. Start the car and listen to the water pump, then turn the car off and put some soft soap on the bottom and sides of the belts. You only have to use a very small amount, and only in one spot on each belt. Then start the car and listen to the front on the water pump. Remember the sound from before. Any difference you hear was the drive belt noise, and what remains is mostly from the water pump. If you hear a pronounced shoosh, shoosh, shoosh..., then the bearing is failing. If you have any experience with this you can go straight to the soap and forget about the baseline noise test.
PaulComment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
Ed / Gene / Paul - thanks for all the information. I am going to to tackle the water pump first as it seems to making a fair amount of noise and recheck all items related to the timing. Appreciate all the posts and great insights. Will keep you updated.Comment
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Re: Timing issue / yellow sparks by water pump / fly wheel
I wanted to close out this post. The sparking issue noted above was due to a missing harmonic balancer bolt and the balancer had walked forward and started to rub on the water pump pulley. Once reparied the dwell and timing could be set and the car is running fine. I want to thank everyone for their posts and Central New Jersey NCRS Chapter President for putting me in touch with Howard and Patick Welch who fixed the harmonic balancer for me quickly.
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