"Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

[James S.]

The nightmare continues.

Original 1960 4 speed transmission.

Recall this 1960 4 speed tranny had 70 miles on it from rebuild. First drive on the asphalt and had to double clutch for third gear only. As I put more miles on the car, the tranny began making a whining noise like a worn out truck tranny, so I pulled for inspection. Took it back to the rebuilder and he discovered the following:

Both "new" shift rod levers are worn. New rear and front bearings (made in Japan) now have excessive play.

Removed the pilot bearing and slid over the input shaft. Has about .010 play. Input shaft measures .090. diameter. I compared the measurement to another Muncie that has a new input shaft and the shaft diameters are the same. The pilot bearing came from Corvette Central. I took a magnet and it stuck to the pilot bearing. I was told this was the wrong kind of bushing to install because it has too much carbon, thus less lubrication. What kind of pilot bearing should I use? I will replace the throw out bearing as well. Installed new clutch arm, clutch, pressure plate, clutch arm, etc.

Since I had problems with third gear from the get go, the second rebuilder must have installed components incorrectly. I ensured shift rods, etc., were dead on for adjustments.

I've had two rebuilders now who just don't have the skills or don't care, for measuring all the tolerences for a 52 year old tranny. I'm thinking to ensure a correct rebuild and never having to pull and re-install the tranny ever again, sending it to Larry at D&L who I am told will ensure all tolerences are measured and replace parts.

Any advice is much appreciated (anxiety attacks were abound this evening).

Thanks in advance.

Jim

[Joe L.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

The nightmare continues.

Original 1960 4 speed transmission.

Recall this 1960 4 speed tranny had 70 miles on it from rebuild. First drive on the asphalt and had to double clutch for third gear only. As I put more miles on the car, the tranny began making a whining noise like a worn out truck tranny, so I pulled for inspection. Took it back to the rebuilder and he discovered the following:

Both "new" shift rod levers are worn. New rear and front bearings (made in Japan) now have excessive play.

Removed the pilot bearing and slid over the input shaft. Has about .010 play. Input shaft measures .090. diameter. I compared the measurement to another Muncie that has a new input shaft and the shaft diameters are the same. The pilot bearing came from Corvette Central. I took a magnet and it stuck to the pilot bearing. I was told this was the wrong kind of bushing to install because it has too much carbon, thus less lubrication. What kind of pilot bearing should I use? I will replace the throw out bearing as well. Installed new clutch arm, clutch, pressure plate, clutch arm, etc.

Since I had problems with third gear from the get go, the second rebuilder must have installed components incorrectly. I ensured shift rods, etc., were dead on for adjustments.

I've had two rebuilders now who just don't have the skills or don't care, for measuring all the tolerences for a 52 year old tranny. I'm thinking to ensure a correct rebuild and never having to pull and re-install the tranny ever again, sending it to Larry at D&L who I am told will ensure all tolerences are measured and replace parts.

Any advice is much appreciated (anxiety attacks were abound this evening).

Thanks in advance.

Jim

Jim------


I'm confused. First, you mention that this is an original 1960 transmission. Later in your post you mention that you compared some measurement to "another Muncie". Those statements are "incompatible". 1960 transmissions were Borg Warner T-10. Muncie transmissions were first used for later 1963 Corvettes. So, which do you have?

[Terry D.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

James
Agree with Joe, your statements are a little confusing. Why didn't you have the first rebuilder stand by his work? D & L will take care of you the first time.
Terry

[Tom P.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

Joe,
I think he was only comparing the diameter dimensions of the pilot on the end of the input shaft------------which should be the same for ANY manual tranny used in a Chevy.

[Loren L.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

James, where do you live? Perhaps someone can come up the name of a
reliable, responsible transmission in your area by private message or otherwise.

[James S.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

Joe,
I think he was only comparing the diameter dimensions of the pilot on the end of the input shaft------------which should be the same for ANY manual tranny used in a Chevy.

Tom,

Thank you. You are correct. It was late; brain was a little slow that late.

Jim

[James S.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

James, where do you live? Perhaps someone can come up the name of a
reliable, responsible transmission in your area by private message or otherwise.

Hi Loren,

I live in Waldorf, MD. I had a super excellent rebuilder of both manual and automatics; Fred's Transmissions, but unfortunatley he came down with cancer and passed away. He had restored 15 transmissions for me. He had equipment for line boring to complete disassembly of a torque converter for an auto.

I think I will go with Larry at D&L. I've spoken with him; he was very helpful with the rebuilder I have now via phone for trouble shooting. I think the current rebuilder is a great guy, but when it comes to a 52 year old tranny, he doesn't have the expertise or care to get in the books for the minutia details of measuring for original clearances.

I appreciate your assist.

Jim

[James S.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

James
Agree with Joe, your statements are a little confusing. Why didn't you have the first rebuilder stand by his work? D & L will take care of you the first time.
Terry

The first rebuilder, a GM tranny expert in Michigan named Dave at David's Four Speeds, sent me back the tranny. Upon receiving, I inspected the tranny and discovered that the input shaft would not spin freely; I knew something was amiss. I called him back and he said that was normal for that year. I was not convinced, so I hired a local guy who had a great reputation and discovered a shim was left out, and a few gears were worn that should have been replaced. I received a partial refund from him, and a bunch of agony from someone who would not stand by their work. Had I been in MI, I would have taken him to small claims.

The second rebuilder who had discovered the issues from the first rebuilder, gained my confidence. But, as you can see, from the get go, not being able to shift into third gear without double clutching again was a sign that the second rebuilder did not do his homework either. I have never had to deal with this kind of problem to this extent, so I am fortunate, but pulling and reinstalling three times on a fresh factory spec ground up restoration as you know impacts the appearance of parts.

I appreciate the assist.

Jim

[James S.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

Jim------


I'm confused. First, you mention that this is an original 1960 transmission. Later in your post you mention that you compared some measurement to "another Muncie". Those statements are "incompatible". 1960 transmissions were Borg Warner T-10. Muncie transmissions were first used for later 1963 Corvettes. So, which do you have?

Hi Joe,

The tranny I compared with is an early BW as well. Sorry for the confusion.

[Timothy B.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

James, I had Darrell for Pipers put my 63 T-10 transmission together and no problems. I did purchase new gears, input shaft and overhaul kit in the years before zi made the swap.

I would not hesitate to use Darrell again as I think he's a good guy and I second Larry from D&L, they don't get any better than that.

[James S.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

James, I had Darrell for Pipers put my 63 T-10 transmission together and no problems. I did purchase new gears, input shaft and overhaul kit in the years before zi made the swap.

I would not hesitate to use Darrell again as I think he's a good guy and I second Larry from D&L, they don't get any better than that.

Tim,

Thanks for the info. The current rebulder Bobby is speaking to Larry as we speak. Now that is the sign of a quality human taking his time to work with a total stranger to discuss what has to be checked. I'm hoping the third rebuild will be the end of this saga. Larry said Bobby knows what he is doing, but obviously he didn't go far enough to ensure the components were correct and tolerences were in compliant with specs.

Larry told me the pilot bushing Corvette Central sells is junk; too much carbon and not enough bronze so Larry will supply that as well as a heavy heavy duty rebuild kit.

Jim

[Joe L.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

Tim,

Thanks for the info. The current rebulder Bobby is speaking to Larry as we speak. Now that is the sign of a quality human taking his time to work with a total stranger to discuss what has to be checked. I'm hoping the third rebuild will be the end of this saga. Larry said Bobby knows what he is doing, but obviously he didn't go far enough to ensure the components were correct and tolerences were in compliant with specs.

Larry told me the pilot bushing Corvette Central sells is junk; too much carbon and not enough bronze so Larry will supply that as well as a heavy heavy duty rebuild kit.

Jim

Jim------



The strange thing is that in rebuilding a BW T-10 or a Muncie, there are very few "adjustments" or "clearances to be set" involved in the process. It's pretty much just a matter of dis-assembly and assembly using whatever new parts are required.

As Bruce Shaw, one of my mentors on transmission rebuilding used to say, "...if it works on the bench, it will work on the car..."

[William C.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

AMEN, done a number of them over the years, and it ain't really rocket science as long as the case is good.

[James S.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

Jim------



The strange thing is that in rebuilding a BW T-10 or a Muncie, there are very few "adjustments" or "clearances to be set" involved in the process. It's pretty much just a matter of dis-assembly and assembly using whatever new parts are required.

As Bruce Shaw, one of my mentors on transmission rebuilding used to say, "...if it works on the bench, it will work on the car..."

As long as "all the parts are installed!!!" The first rebuilder left out a shim so the shaft would not spin freely. And he used gears, bearings, etc., from China. He lied to me when I first spoke to him as he said he installs only USA made Timken bearings, gears, etc. This was discovered when I hired another local rebuilder to check out why the shaft did not spin freely. I didn't want to send the tranny all the way back to MI, and the MI rebuilder said he would not pay for shipping anyways!

[Patrick H.]

Re: "Nightmare" continues for 1960 Tranny

The first rebuilder, a GM tranny expert in Michigan named Dave at David's Four Speeds,

Apparently he wasn't really an expert.