C2 Ball Joints

[Mark P.]

How do you know when your ball joints need to be replaced ?

Is it typically the lowers that need replacing ?

Does America's Finest make the closest reproduction ?

Anyone having issues with repro ball joints failing ?

Two mechanics told me they have heard of repro ball joints failing in just 1,000 miles or do and both told me to go with MOOG ball joints annd take the deduction.


What would be the total deduction if I bolted in MOOG ball joints for upper and lower ?

What would be the total deduction if I correctly riveted MOOG ball joints for upper and lower ?

[Joe L.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints

How do you know when your ball joints need to be replaced ?

Is it typically the lowers that need replacing ?

Does America's Finest make the closest reproduction ?

Anyone having issues with repro ball joints failing ?

Two mechanics told me they have heard of repro ball joints failing in just 1,000 miles or do and both told me to go with MOOG ball joints annd take the deduction.


What would be the total deduction if I bolted in MOOG ball joints for upper and lower ?

What would be the total deduction if I correctly riveted MOOG ball joints for upper and lower ?

Mark-----

How do you know when your ball joints need to be replaced ?

Sometimes, you can feel "looseness" when you rock the front wheels up and down by hand with the car raised. However, often times it's difficult to diagnose this way. If the car shows "instability" in steering (i.e. lots of very minor wheel corrections as you drive), that's a sign you need ball joints. If the car has high mileage, I'd just assume the lowers need replacing.

Is it typically the lowers that need replacing ?

For 63-82 Corvettes it's almost always the lowers that will be bad. The uppers practically never wear out.

Does America's Finest make the closest reproduction ?

Yes, they do.

Anyone having issues with repro ball joints failing ?

I have no knowledge of problems, however......

Two mechanics told me they have heard of repro ball joints failing in just 1,000 miles or do and both told me to go with MOOG ball joints annd take the deduction.

I'm not surprised, at all. Very often repro parts are made with dedication to achieving correct or nearly correct CONFIGURATION. Functionality seems to be a much lower priority. I would be VERY reluctant to actually use these repro ball joints on a driven car.


What would be the total deduction if I bolted in MOOG ball joints for upper and lower ?

Don't know

What would be the total deduction if I correctly riveted MOOG ball joints for upper and lower ?

Don't know

[John H.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints

What would be the total deduction if I bolted in MOOG ball joints for upper and lower ?

What would be the total deduction if I correctly riveted MOOG ball joints for upper and lower ?

Mark -

Ball joint deductions are very minor, as they only carry 5 originality points, and there are other parts judged in that same line item. Based on deductions for configuration and/or installation, you're probably talking 2 points.

[Gary B.]

C2 Ball Joints; points deduction

Mark,

As John says, there are 5 originality points in total for the chassis line item: "Lower A arms, ball joints & hardware". What's odd is there is no separate line item for upper ball joints. Both upper and lower ball joints are captured in the line item with the lower A arm. In any case, judges I've worked with generally deduct 1 point for bolts/nuts instead of rivets and I can see they might want to take an additional point for ball joints that, say, are missing the unthreaded nose extension or if the grease boot is different. So, 2 points max. After all, the originality of the A arm and pivot shaft & hardware have to count toward the 5 total points.

I could also see a chassis team only taking a total of 1 point for ball joint bolts/nuts instead of rivets even with a minor incorrectly configured ball joint (missing the unthreaded extension), based on the argument that if the A arms are correct and the pivot shaft & hardware are correct and part of the ball joint in correct, then a deduct of 1 point is enough. Especially if you don't replace the uppers and those are original and correctly configured & installed with rivets.

So a 1 point deduct at a minimum, but more likely 2 points, presuming the judges note the ball joint unthreaded nose or grease boot deviation.

Gary

[Gary R.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints

Well I can tell you I have seen them fail, especially those in the kits sold for $200 on average. The parts were imported junk, no other way to express it.

One guy I know used one of those kits and when he had the car aligned with maybe 20 miles on them the lowers were bad and had to be replaced.

Forget about points, use the best out there now- MOOG. I believe they're still made in the USA but for how long will that be??

Look up the thread all about this on DC, pretty good read from a few years ago.

[Joe L.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints

Well I can tell you I have seen them fail, especially those in the kits sold for $200 on average. The parts were imported junk, no other way to express it.

One guy I know used one of those kits and when he had the car aligned with maybe 20 miles on them the lowers were bad and had to be replaced.

Forget about points, use the best out there now- MOOG. I believe they're still made in the USA but for how long will that be??

Look up the thread all about this on DC, pretty good read from a few years ago.

Gary-------


I had serious questions about the quality of these reproduction ball joints since I first saw them on the market. I've just seen too many cases in which parts are reproduced to original or near-original configuration but nowhere near original quality.

Original parts can be sent to China and copied. The Chinese are great at manufacturing exact copies of just about anything. However, the focus is on "what's on the outside" and NOT "what's on the inside". So, if one is talking about copying and emblem or a piece of trim, they can get it exactly right. But, if one is talking about a part that has serious functional responsibility, the whole thing can "fall flat on its face". It's very possible that these ball joints are made by a Chinese company that never even made a ball joint before. I'm not saying that's the case here but it is a possibility. From what I'm told, some of these Chinese "copy" outfits are extremely small, "cottage-industry-type" operations.

One thing I do not understand, though, is product liability issues. One would think that anyone selling parts in this country at the retail level would be concerned about liability for safety-related parts. You'd think that product-liability insurers would want to have some control of the products or companies they are insuring.

In any event, a basic rule: for parts that have serious functional responsibility and safety implications, be more concerned about what's on the inside than what's on the outside.

[Gary B.]

C2 Ball Joints: Quality of reproductions

Joe, Gary,

When you're talking about low quality reproduction ball joints, are you saying that the ones sold by America's Finest Corvettes are in the category? If not, one should be careful about implying that all repros are the same quality.

Gary

[Dan H.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints

I've run a full set of AFC's A-Arms/ball joints for 13000 miles so far and they perform fine. Just had an alignment and all checked out. I'll try to find out where Michael has them made. Just my experience so far.
Dan

[Dan H.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints

Just spoke with Michael, owner of AFC and he says yes his ball joints are made by a firm in China, they are huge and supply the 'Big Three' Companies here. These are a modern design, sealed grease type, and require NO lubing. The zerk is there for looks only. He supplies major Corvette Vendors such as Paragon and Corvette Central. He does say there is one product out there that is very weak, the zerk won't screw down into the dome on top etc.
Dan

[Joe L.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints: Quality of reproductions

Joe, Gary,

When you're talking about low quality reproduction ball joints, are you saying that the ones sold by America's Finest Corvettes are in the category? If not, one should be careful about implying that all repros are the same quality.

Gary

Gary-------


I don't know what manufacturing source or sources exist for these ball joints, and I'm not implying that all are bad. What I'm saying is how does one know what the quality of ANY reproduction part actually is? We have seen many cases of inferior quality when it comes to non-mechanical, non-safety-related parts INCLUDING those manufactured under license to the GM Restoration Parts Program. It's discussed here all the time. So, why would one think that the possibility of such problems does not exist for a part like these ball joints? And, for a part like these ball joints, one has to be a lot more careful than when buying a reproduction emblem.

[John H.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints; points deduction

What's odd is there is no separate line item for upper ball joints. Gary

Gary -

The upper ball joints are captured in Item #3, Engine Compartment, Upper A-arms & Shock Attachment; 4 points for the line item.

[Gary R.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints

Well first off I want to say I do not know or have I ever dealt with America's Finest Corvettes. I can't say anything about the business.

The parts I'm referring to are the ones that can be commonly seen at many large shows and online. Again the ones I've seen fail were in these common kits, I got stuck with a full kit myself about 7-8 years ago.

The guys that contacted me or ones that I read about who posted on the various forums were all told the same line when they questioned the quality and premature failure- " we never heard of this before" Some well known vendors were selling these and I really have a hard time accepting the fact they were unaware of QC issues. Could be, but there was plenty of negative stories for people not to be aware. Soon afterwards some starting substituting MOOG joints in their kits for increased cost of course. Other claimed to sell MOOG in their kits yet when those same parts were pictured they looked nothing like the USA parts I purchased.

I purchased USA MOOG front suspension parts from Rock Auto a couple of years ago. The cost was about $400 compared to the typical $180-$200. I stocked up on them for my vettes. Myself, I don't care about points or numbers I want the best parts I can get for my cars. For the most part that means USA made.

I agree with Joe, the quality with imports is not the same but it is getting better. Still, it's sure nothing like we had here for years. Being in Mfg for 35 years it's hard to see this happen but that's where we are now, a global economy! Being pro-USA I'll never accept it myself. I could go on with some personal experiences but that's not the point. Just be aware of what you get, it may not be what you expect.

The same thing just happened with rag joints, as I posted about here and on DC they are not the same anymore.

[Gary B.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints; points deduction

Gary -

The upper ball joints are captured in Item #3, Engine Compartment, Upper A-arms & Shock Attachment; 4 points for the line item.

John,

I interpret the '66 TIM&JG and judging sheets differently than you do. If you look in the '66 TIM&JG there is no mention whatsoever of ball joints in Item 3, "Upper A arms & shock attachment". Whereas in the item 7, "Ball joints & Hardware" the TIM&JG states "both upper & lower ball joints are a natural finish ...". From which I conclude the judging points for both upper and lower ball joint are only part of item 7.

Now this might vary among the C2 TIM&JGs. But as far as '66 is concerned, I'd judge all ball joints in item 7, based on the '66 TIM&JG description.

Gary

[Joe L.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints

Well first off I want to say I do not know or have I ever dealt with America's Finest Corvettes. I can't say anything about the business.

The parts I'm referring to are the ones that can be commonly seen at many large shows and online. Again the ones I've seen fail were in these common kits, I got stuck with a full kit myself about 7-8 years ago.

The guys that contacted me or ones that I read about who posted on the various forums were all told the same line when they questioned the quality and premature failure- " we never heard of this before" Some well known vendors were selling these and I really have a hard time accepting the fact they were unaware of QC issues. Could be, but there was plenty of negative stories for people not to be aware. Soon afterwards some starting substituting MOOG joints in their kits for increased cost of course. Other claimed to sell MOOG in their kits yet when those same parts were pictured they looked nothing like the USA parts I purchased.

I purchased USA MOOG front suspension parts from Rock Auto a couple of years ago. The cost was about $400 compared to the typical $180-$200. I stocked up on them for my vettes. Myself, I don't care about points or numbers I want the best parts I can get for my cars. For the most part that means USA made.

I agree with Joe, the quality with imports is not the same but it is getting better. Still, it's sure nothing like we had here for years. Being in Mfg for 35 years it's hard to see this happen but that's where we are now, a global economy! Being pro-USA I'll never accept it myself. I could go on with some personal experiences but that's not the point. Just be aware of what you get, it may not be what you expect.

The same thing just happened with rag joints, as I posted about here and on DC they are not the same anymore.

Gary-------


I think we may be talking about 2 different things here. The reproduction ball joints have come on the market fairly recently, maybe the last 3 or 4 years. They certainly haven't been around for 8 years unless time has gotten completely away from me. Also, I'm not aware that they were ever available as a kit but, if so, it would not have cost $200. I think that 4 of these ball joints would cost more than $200.

I think that what you're probably referring to is the front rebuild kits which include the ball joints, tie rod ends, stabilizer links, and other parts to rebuild the front suspension. I don't think that these were ever offered as "reproduction" parts, though; I think they are just replacement parts. The configuration of the ball joints and tie rod ends that I've seen are in no way reproductions of the original pieces.

When I've looked at these kits the parts always seemed really "chintzy" to me. I sort of looked at these kits as for "budget conscious" folks. I wouldn't even have considered using ANY of the parts in these kits.

[Gary R.]

Re: C2 Ball Joints

Gary-------


I think we may be talking about 2 different things here. The reproduction ball joints have come on the market fairly recently, maybe the last 3 or 4 years. They certainly haven't been around for 8 years unless time has gotten completely away from me. Also, I'm not aware that they were ever available as a kit but, if so, it would not have cost $200. I think that 4 of these ball joints would cost more than $200.

I think that what you're probably referring to is the front rebuild kits which include the ball joints, tie rod ends, stabilizer links, and other parts to rebuild the front suspension. I don't think that these were ever offered as "reproduction" parts, though; I think they are just replacement parts. The configuration of the ball joints and tie rod ends that I've seen are in no way reproductions of the original pieces.

When I've looked at these kits the parts always seemed really "chintzy" to me. I sort of looked at these kits as for "budget conscious" folks. I wouldn't even have considered using ANY of the parts in these kits.

Hi Joe,
Yes those are the kits I'm referring to, as mentioned I've never dealt with AFC so I haven't seen their parts first hand.

However, those kits are sold by just about every vendor and it seems a lot of the new owners get sucked into the price and glossy pictures in some catalogs. If the price seems too good to be true,... well you know the rest.

The MOOG high hat upper and the #256 lowers are all I use. Completely wrong from a matching number/correctness perspective but work the best to my knowledge. Some have been selling the MOOG white box parts which are not the same but they can claim to sell MOOG in thier kits.