non-original sidepipe deduction...

[Joe C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

It's the same car at the same event being discussed on that other forum. Pretty much same cast of characters too.

Mike,

Just want to be consistent.....

/joe

[Brian M.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Why isn't there a standard deduct for sidepipes added? One for a radio equiped car and one for no radio?

[Philip A.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

I have a very similar thread going on in another forum as the same thing happened to a friend of mine at a local NCRS show.. He has a car (st louie) that has side pipes that were not original to the car. It was then labeled a counterfeit although from talking with him the judging sheets don't state that. He was told that the car could no longer be judged until he put the under car exhaust back on the car.. I gotta tell you this is pure BS and the chapters need to understand the rules..

Looking at the Spring Restorer, Roy S's example CLEARLY states the car will just continue to get the full deduct until its original again.. I appreciate that John H. has also stated that this is an incorrect interpetation of the rules.. I sure hope that the chapters that have done this correct their mistake..

/joe

Joe
Thanks for confirming what I have been told. I have a super original restored car with the exception of non-factory sidepipes. I was planning on having the car judged but will not if it is going to be "branded" conterfeit; which I feel is heavy handed and should be reserved for issues with Vin and Trim Tags!

I also feel that if this is going to be the NCRS practice (which I do not agree with) it should be limited to regional and/or national judging. Chapter judges are too inexperienced.

Technically speaking, if a car has ANY (detectable) reproduction option it should also get branded "counterfeit" since you can not tell it came with it from the factory; otherwise you are just being arbitrary!

Love the cars starting to hate the game.
Phil

[Michael W.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Phil-

It's been clearly stated here and on that other site that a few people at at a recent meet misinterpreted some rules.

There is no judging rule that would cause such a car to be branded as counterfeit.

[Joe C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Joe
Thanks for confirming what I have been told. I have a super original restored car with the exception of non-factory sidepipes. I was planning on having the car judged but will not if it is going to be "branded" conterfeit; which I feel is heavy handed and should be reserved for issues with Vin and Trim Tags!

I also feel that if this is going to be the NCRS practice (which I do not agree with) it should be limited to regional and/or national judging. Chapter judges are too inexperienced.

Technically speaking, if a car has ANY (detectable) reproduction option it should also get branded "counterfeit" since you can not tell it came with it from the factory; otherwise you are just being arbitrary!

Love the cars starting to hate the game.
Phil

Phil-

It's been clearly stated here and on that other site that a few people at at a recent meet misinterpreted some rules.

There is no judging rule that would cause such a car to be branded as counterfeit.

Phil,

As Mike and John stated, this is clearly a misinterpetation of the rules so you should be ok at this point.. I would probably ensure that you have a copy of the spring restorer handy just in case your local chapter has a hard time reading and comprehending...

Since this has happened a few times I would hope that Vito or Roy S. would do something to ensure this is cleared up and put to bed officially..

I love the cars also and I'll play the game, it just won't be the way they want me to all the time.. More than one way to skin a cat(r)..

/joe

[William C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Simple, keep a copy of Roy's message with you if you go to a chapter meet. That should clear up any issues at that level, then all you are left to worry about is how many of the deviations they can (will) find as the process progresses.

[Gary B.]

Fiberglass & Fit deduct category

Can't give condition points for missing items, so it's possible. Remember this is only a hypothetical, and was intended to look at the max that could be deducted scenario. Typically in practical application I've seen around 80 points, but the scenario was presented a while back in response to the question as to "what if?" It assumes the team leader coordinates the information to all of the teams and/or the situation is caught prior to ops check.

Bill,

To beat the dead horse, I think a 28 point deduct for FG & Fit is far to big of a hit. In that Exterior category there are a total of 65 points for originality and 55 points for condition; for a total of 120 points for the entire car. A 28 point deduct is nearly 26% of the 120 total points. Given the area/size of the two FG regions affected by the side pipes, I don't think most judges would deduct 26% in that category.

If I had to guess, I'd say maybe a 5% or maybe a 10% deduct of the 120 points would be more appropriate. So, maybe a deduct of 6 pts to 12 pts for FG & fit, rather than 28.

Your thoughts?

Gary

[William C.]

Re: Fiberglass & Fit deduct category

Well, it's been quite a while since I put that hypothetical together, but if the sp is properly installed, the rear inner and outer fenders, plus the fronts and rhe rear valence all have a deviation from "Factory" The degree depends on how the builder accomplished the conversion, but a whole lot of panels are modified in the process. As said, I was looking at a "worst case" scenario with out an actual car at hand, but a look at the sidepipe installation instructions in the aim is instructional...I will admit I was motivated somewhat by an "Intent to Deceive" situation from a chapter meet I participated in. One of the issues you bring up is without a standard, there is latitude for the judges to determine the severity of the issue. Another in the case of say the rear valence, is it a modification, or just an incorrect part (full deduct). My take is the person who makes the modification should be able to understand the full (worst case) implications of that action. Then, don't be surprised when expectations are met.

[John H.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Joe
Thanks for confirming what I have been told. I have a super original restored car with the exception of non-factory sidepipes. I was planning on having the car judged but will not if it is going to be "branded" conterfeit; which I feel is heavy handed and should be reserved for issues with Vin and Trim Tags!

I also feel that if this is going to be the NCRS practice (which I do not agree with) it should be limited to regional and/or national judging. Chapter judges are too inexperienced.

Technically speaking, if a car has ANY (detectable) reproduction option it should also get branded "counterfeit" since you can not tell it came with it from the factory; otherwise you are just being arbitrary!

Love the cars starting to hate the game.
Phil

Phil -

I'll say it again - no car is going to be branded as counterfeit for having added sidepipes; it'll just get a significant deduction. The counterfeiting penalties only apply to alterations of VIN plates, trim tags, block casting numbers and casting dates.

Instead of running with third and fourth-hand tales and opinions, if all else fails, folks should read the applicable section #34 on Counterfeit Discovery Penalties in the 8th Edition Corvette Judging Reference Manual on page 22-23; it's perfectly clear.

Anyone involved in judging or having their car judged who doesn't have (or hasn't read) the Judging Reference Manual is flying blind.

[Ralph B.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

To make sure I understand all this correctly;

All or any factory option (except A.O Smith cars with side exhaust) are acceptable and will be judged on their technical merit.

Providing they are NOT excluded via the trim tag or N/A as configured, regardless if they were original or not to the car?

Have I got this correct?

Thank you,
Ralph

[William C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Not exactly. Most judges will inspect any sidepipe equipped car for evidence of a sidepipe add, rather than a factory installation, and the appropriate deductions for non-original exhaust will be made. The AOS body simply makes it a much less difficult job for the judges to do the detection. Similarly other signs af equipment adds (or deletes) will be considered in the judging process if found I have seen radio deletes detected, radio adds detected and others.

[Ralph B.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Not exactly. Most judges will inspect any sidepipe equipped car for evidence of a sidepipe add, rather than a factory installation, and the appropriate deductions for non-original exhaust will be made. The AOS body simply makes it a much less difficult job for the judges to do the detection. Similarly other signs af equipment adds (or deletes) will be considered in the judging process if found I have seen radio deletes detected, radio adds detected and others.

However if we take side exhaust out of the picture for the moment and other non original "adds or deletions" were made correctly, thus no point deductions made because it is undetectable which is my point.

[Michael W.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Have I got this correct?

Thank you,
Ralph

I'm gonna say 'no'.

If any car is determined to have an added or deleted option (ie post factory mods) then all points associated with that option are a complete deduct. This complete deduction is recorded and referred to at subsequent meets. If the option is still present at the future meets, it is an automatic full deduct no matter what the owner may have done to make the option look more 'factory like'. The only way to negate the deduction is to return the car to it's original factory config- in other words get rid of the add-ons or reinstall whatever was deleted.

The side pipe example is easy to understand. Another good example would be determining that a PB car actually started life as non-PB, possibly by examining the firewall for hole patterns. Even of the holes are later massaged to look 'original' it is known that the car should be presented in the non-PB config, and returning to that is the only way to avoid the deduction.

I think I have it right.

[Bill W.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

However if we take side exhaust out of the picture for the moment and other non original "adds or deletions" were made correctly, thus no point deductions made because it is undetectable which is my point.

Ralph,
Correct me if I am wrong, I get the feeling you are thinking about adding sidepipes to a St. Louis car, then going for NCRS judging while hoping for the highest score possible. If you do this, what will you declare on the GREEN SHEET? It says something along the lines of "to the best of my knowledge only the items I have listed are non-factory installed." If you deliberatly mis-state a fact on the green sheet and this is discovered the judging chair will take a dim view of this.
NCRS judges above a certain level are very good at finding added sidepipes. I don't think you will be able get through the process without detection.
All this being said, what you do is your business and not mine. No offence intended, but I would not knowingly show a car without stating on the green sheet what I had changed/added. Bill

[William C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Undetectable is the issue, what may have felt was undetectable was in fact detected and dealt with properly at many events, The owner takes a large risk, and in some (many) cases it has been a very costly risk. Particularly at the higher level shows, Judges are not the naive waifs you might believe.