inconsistant judging

[Mark D.]

Re: inconsistant judging

Now that's funny!

[Gene M.]

Re: inconsistant judging

The key word here is participate, P-A-R-T-I-C-I-P-A-T-E as Roy stated above.

Regionals and the National has an advanced judges program that Terry leads. You have the time to learn without worries of interrupting judging as an OJ. Try this next time. Terry has been very accommodating in exceeding normal sign up over 50 people.

Cars are gone over with the owner sharing his experiences as well as anybody that has information to share. This has lead to some strong interest and discussion. As a climax the lift goes up and everybody seems to enjoy the chassis overhead and talking about it. Now this is something you can never get in the flight judging as an OJ.

Chassis is not the only focus. In Florida Regional we started in the front grill and valance area as a focal point. As questions are presented the discussion kept growing. As a result a lot of the smaller details not mentioned in the guide were explained.

I have lead some of the mid year classes with a lot of judges and better informed owners getting the "small details" answered. True the information in the guides is not complete, and judges do "add their knowledge" to flight judging. And many owners complain "thats not in the manual". Well, now take that opportunity to pick up on some unprinted information at Terry's Advanced Training session. I'm always ready to entertain questions and discussion, in fact I encourage it.

[John H.]

Re: inconsistant judging

I guess it'd be nice to have a 100%-accurate all-inclusive Judging Guide for each year group, but you'd need wheels on it and handles to drag it by; in the meantime, those of us who contribute to the revisions do a lot of work in the background to consense on what's TFP. If you haven't noticed, the newer editions are a LOT more detailed and comprehensive than they were only a few years ago.

Remember, it's supposed to be fun, too.

[Pancho T.]

Re: inconsistant judging

There have been several posts where cars lost points, even at the regional level, for having known original/correct parts. Just because a judge, any judge, says it's so, doesn't mean it's true.

So very true!!!!

[Pancho T.]

Re: inconsistant judging

Hi Leonard,
In looking at your comments on your having your 1964 Coupe judged:
It looks like the 38 point loss was from the 2nd time it was judged. The mechanical judges didn't think the pad surface finish was typical factory production or didn't see any broaching at all that the first judges thought were OK. Did you ask the team leader or judging chairman to review this item with you?
The 25 point loss for the exhaust tone must have been from line 19 in Operations. If you have side exhaust on your 1964, I would have thought that the 25 point deduct would have been applied both times.
The rear exhaust vent. I'm guessing that is the rear blower fan in the back of your coupe. Something must have been wrong with it both times. Did you try and fix whatever was wrong from the first 8 point deduct?
On the wheels-do you have repro KO wheels on your 64. I don't have a 1963-64 JG but the 1965 judging guidance on repro KO's is 75% deduct with correct finish and 90% deduct with incorrect finish.
Hopefully the judges made good notes about there deductions and you can reseach these items and correct the ones that gain you the most points for the least dollars. Also if you get a chance to see any 1964 Bowtie cars, take as many pictures of them as possible.
Have fun that's the important part.
Page Campbell

Excellent advice

[Pancho T.]

Re: inconsistant judging

The entire NCRS judging system is based on volunteers. The judging is entirely dependent on who shows up that day. We all hope that people with the skills to do the job will offer their services, just as they hope that car owners will bring their pride & joy for judging. Both parts of that equation have to function, and perform well, for the day to be a success.

As has been pointed out judges have an obligation to explain to the owner the reasons for their deductions, and there is an appeals process for the owner who questions those decisions.

In leading the Advanced Judging Seminars, it has been my experience that folks more often comment on the consistency of judging than the flaws -- but the system is not perfect.

Don't take you bat and ball and go home. Hold the judge's feet to the fire to explain their deduction -- and if you still don't agree take your appeal to the next level. The system is in place to serve the car owner, but the owner has to make it work for him by using that system. It (the system) only gets better through use.

More excellent advice

[Clark K.]

Re: inconsistant judging

I find it very informative reading about judging inconsistencies and why NCRS attends specific events from individuals that admittedly do not participate, but have all the answers. Or maybe I should say very informative reading comments of those with half empty glasses.

Roy, I cannot write for others but I do not see NCRS members doing anything here but "voicing" their thoughts on a certain topic: "inconsistent judging". My experience at NCRS Flight Judging meets is one of finding judging inconsistencies. The original poster told of his frustration. I have the same frustrations, so this is not an isolated case of one member. I would bet that there are many.

I have attended only one meet where both you and I attended. I believe that your presence stopped some of the normal shenanigans. I believe that you may be unaware of what happens when you are not there. And, please understand that I am not telling you that you should attend every meet. I am glad that you are monitoring this discussion, just so you know the sincere thoughts of our fellow members.

And, please understand that NCRS has many members who have extensive tenure in other marque clubs and may not have as much tenure in NCRS. They are still valuable assets even with their limited experience with NCRS. -Clark Top Flight 1989, 1990, 2009.

[Clark K.]

Re: inconsistant judging

Jim, Please define "notification."
Remember the judging standard is Typical Factory Production (TFP). That means the Team Leader, with the manual revision team, has to decide what configuration or finish constitutes TFP before that information goes into the judging manual.

I would like to suggest that if a TFP configuration cannot be definitely pinned down to an "either/or" configuration, then the manual revision team should state in the judging guide that this item has so many configurations that judging it cannot be done, other than finish. If finish cannot be nailed down, that information should also be stated.

I remember a long discussion of a tiny part on the firewall that one Chassis judge thought should have a small black ink dot on one side. I thought that this was nit-picking to the nth degree.

My written thoughts should in no way be taken as a criticism of any individual or team. All NCRS members are volunteers, and as a volunteer myself, appreciate them all.
-Clark

[Terry M.]

Re: inconsistant judging

I would like to suggest that if a TFP configuration cannot be definitely pinned down to an "either/or" configuration, then the manual revision team should state in the judging guide that this item has so many configurations that judging it cannot be done, other than finish. If finish cannot be nailed down, that information should also be stated.

I remember a long discussion of a tiny part on the firewall that one Chassis judge thought should have a small black ink dot on one side. I thought that this was nit-picking to the nth degree.

My written thoughts should in no way be taken as a criticism of any individual or team. All NCRS members are volunteers, and as a volunteer myself, appreciate them all.
-Clark

Some, some might say many, items are not listed in the judging manual because sufficient research hasn't been done to determine either configuration or finish. Remember it is a guide and no one has ever said it covers ALL items -- and I suspect they never will -- unless as John Hinckley said we have a wheel barrow to carry it in. If you are looking for how to put tab A into slot B and what shape and color each is -- well, I am not surprised you are frustrated.

[Clark K.]

Re: inconsistant judging

Some items are not listed in the judging manual because sufficient research hasn't been done to determine either configuration or finish. Remember it is a guide and no one has ever said it covers ALL items. If you are looking for how to put tab A into slot B and what shape and color each is -- well, I am not surprised you are frustrated.

Terry, apparently, many NCRS members are frustrated, not just me. That is why SOME have responded. Others, no doubt, are intimidated after Roy's post. Many NCRS members are frustrated because the judging guides are interpreted differently by different judges. Others have dropped out of NCRS...I meet them all the time at car shows when they see my Top Flight car.

I have spoken to numerous NCRS members that told me that after one meet, finding something wrong, changing the item to meet the judging team's suggestion, only to have it judged wrong the next time, by another set of judges. That should never happen and my solution would be to take all interpretations out of the judging process, AFTER the judging guides were accepted as totally correct. Things that could not be verified would be listed as "not judged" until more research has been done. -Clark

[Mark D.]

Re: inconsistant judging

I would think the JG will never be in a final, "this is it" form. I've flown the Boeing 737 on and off since 1984 and the Pilot Manual has revised numerous times per year since. It's been that way with every aircraft I've flown. As judges discover new data, they judge items differently. It's a continual learning process.

I'm sure members do come and go because they feel the organization should be this or do that (can't be all things to all people.) I know if the club starts focusing on making the awards easier, I'll ride off into the sunset myself.

Clark, I sincerely hope you can find some enjoyment in this hobby, after all, that's what it's all about. A wise man once said, 'lighten up, Francis.'

[Reba W.]

Re: inconsistant judging

I don't have a dog in this fight and was going to remain silent, but finally decided to comment. Most of the inconsistencies I have seen are at chapter meets. I served as judging chair for ten years; very few of my chapter members judge outside the chapter. Yet, when it came to a meet I had to come up with at least 30 judges. We did the best we could for the owner, but I know of cases where they got a rude shock later at a regional meet.

Regional judging is more consistent because the team leaders are there to direct it and choose the most qualified people. Many Master Judges attend regionals in their half of the country, and some attend all no matter where they are. Plus Roy Sinor or his designee supervises these meets.

But as stated earlier, judges ARE human and sometimes there are things that just have to be interpreted subjectively. At the chapter meet this past weekend, there was discussion regarding where a non-original part number fell in the CDCIF scoring rubric. (and these were Master+ Judges)

[Don H.]

Re: inconsistant judging

I would like to suggest that if a TFP configuration cannot be definitely pinned down to an "either/or" configuration, then the manual revision team should state in the judging guide that this item has so many configurations that judging it cannot be done, other than finish. If finish cannot be nailed down, that information should also be stated.

I remember a long discussion of a tiny part on the firewall that one Chassis judge thought should have a small black ink dot on one side. I thought that this was nit-picking to the nth degree.

My written thoughts should in no way be taken as a criticism of any individual or team. All NCRS members are volunteers, and as a volunteer myself, appreciate them all.
-Clark

Referring to judges as wind bags because they identify something in their inspection that is not articulated in the Guide sounds like criticism, or worse. Something so small that it is not even in the Guide would not possibly cause a car to not make top flight, but it might earn a point deduct or a dot. Not worth getting in a huff over. Change it or don't for next time. You will still be top flight I bet.

Terry, apparently, many NCRS members are frustrated, not just me. That is why SOME have responded. Others, no doubt, are intimidated after Roy's post. Many NCRS members are frustrated because the judging guides are interpreted differently by different judges. Others have dropped out of NCRS...I meet them all the time at car shows when they see my Top Flight car.

I have spoken to numerous NCRS members that told me that after one meet, finding something wrong, changing the item to meet the judging team's suggestion, only to have it judged wrong the next time, by another set of judges. That should never happen and my solution would be to take all interpretations out of the judging process, AFTER the judging guides were accepted as totally correct. Things that could not be verified would be listed as "not judged" until more research has been done. -Clark

This can never happen. If you need it to happen, you are in the wrong club. Every possible variation can not be described or articulated in a Guide for production line cars. Maybe for much more limited hand-built marques, but not Corvettes. Just because a variation is not described in the Guide, does not mean it should be ignored. I also found this in my former business. We had a procedures manual, and often times, when someone was called to task for something done improperly or not done at all, they would want to see where it was written in the manual that they could or could not do it. Well, while the manual was a thick as a phone book, it still could not possibly cover every conceivable circumstance that could occur in life. Everyone's corvette differs in big or small ways from everyone else's corvette. There will be variables in the judging process. You have to be able to call something more right or more wrong, in light of the variables. If everything that is Gray and not Black or White is called "not judged", many people could never get a score. Now, that would really piss a lot of people off. Enjoy the judging process as it is, if you can. I think after all the years the Club has been doing what it does, the system is pretty refined, and works well for a good percentage of the membership. I'm a new guy, with an unrestored but improving car that has been judged and deemed only 2nd Flight. I find what the club offers to be quite enjoyable. It sounds like despite your bad experiences, you are doing well in it anyway with your Top Flights. The people you meet outside the club who tell you that they used to be in NCRS but had to quit, probably never were....

[Clem Z.]

Re: inconsistant judging

i have a friend who rented a tow vehicle and a trailer towed several thousand miles to have his corvette PV and every thing passed including the doors closing perfectly. he was failed because a judge opened the door wide open and found a little bid of up and down play in the door. does anyone know for sure that a brand new corvette would not have this ?? i don't believe he ever went back to a NCRS judging meet