1965 30-30 versus LT1 cam

[Michael F.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

My question is to Michael Frost, if you have a 340hp 63 car why are you using the 30/30 over the 097. With the other related 63 parts why not use the original camshaft.

I would spend my time maximizing the compression ratio with the head gasket/quench distance and keep the engine componits original spec.

That's one reason why these over cammed engines need to idle so high because they have no dynamic compression ratio. Combine that with close ratio and 355-370 gear..

I know I am on the NCRS site. Where correct rules.

In my case, I have a 65 365hp top end. ie:461 2.02 heads and intake.

[Michael F.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

Thanks for all the advice, I think I'm going back to the original stile 3030 cam does anyone know where i should start looking thanks thanks Ralph

Rock auto has the cam-lifter kit in stock. #KC-118R

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php

[Joe C.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

Idle speed/quality isn't an issue on a vintage racing engine. One just sets the idle speed high enough and rich enough to be stable so you can get from the paddock to the track and back through the paddock without the engine stalling. Something near 1500 is usually okay for most configurations.

With the clearances set at .023" and the ...142 or equivalent valve springs this configuration will make competitive power - at least compared to legal engines where OE rockers and flat tappet cams are required - in the 5500-7500 range (with a valve float speed of 8000+) while still being fairly easy on the OE valve train and acceptable torque at 3000-3500. Torque below 3000 isn't an issue on a vintage racing engine. If revs drop below 3000 in second gear on the slowest corner, the axle ratio is too tall.

Header primary pipes should be nominally 1 7/8" ID, 32-34" long with minimum 3" open side pipes 36-60" long.

At the last Willow Springs race of the season late last year, the 283 vintage racer changed his axle from 4.11 to 3.70 on the suggestion of a retired race driver. It was a dog, and the 4.11 is back in. He runs a 4.56 at Monterey.

Duke

Yes.....of course.

[Michael H.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

That's because the "fuel" unit works so poorly with the 30-30 cam when it is lashed properly. ..

Yeah, Yeah !! You old geezers sit around and talk about how fast you would be with an FI unit.

I DID IT !! In a real race car !!

[Joe C.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

Yeah, Yeah !! You old geezers sit around and talk about how fast you would be with an FI unit.

I DID IT !! In a real race car !!

I'm saying you'd have been much faster with a carburetor, depending on what config you would have been allowed to run.

By the way, you have the wrong colored wires on that engine. Tsk, tsk. Shame on you!
I hope that they're at least, dated "correctly".

Do you have any video/sound of your exploits? I seem to remember one a while ago.

[Duke W.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

Yeah, Yeah !! You old geezers sit around and talk about how fast you would be with an FI unit.

I DID IT !! In a real race car !!

Do you have any detail configuration and dyno data for this engine that you can share?

Duke

[Stephen B.]

Re: 1965 3030 verses LT1 cam

We try to make more horse power in these old engines because we can and because we never want to grow up.By the way I've always wondered how competitive a C5 or 6 would be with 6 inch tires. Straight line performance with the same size tire and I'll take my old 3200 lb.HP small block against your 3500 to 3600 lb.Hi tech C5 or 6 anytime. It's called weight to HP. ratio and weight transfer to the rear axle
Stephen Barrett (21558) 59,66,71,73

[Clem Z.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

Do you have any detail configuration and dyno data for this engine that you can share?

Duke

back in the day the only places that any dynos were places like the gulf research labs and that is why we went there at night to dyno engines. ron mccafferty was in charge of the dynos and he would let us in at night to play.

[Stuart F.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

Stephen;

Let's see if I got this right; I should challenge my son to do a 30 and up punch, just as I used to do in the old days against the hot dogs w/4.56's and 4.11's? Have you ever felt the torque these new monsters have? My son's is a 2008 convertible w/ the LS-3, some 436 hp and a 6-speed. I've got 340 hp and a 4-speed. Granted mine runs real good and will pull the 3.36 to redline in first, second and third, but strain to say 5500 in fourth (not sure anymore). I can power shift so I will beat him between gears, but I think I'd be lucky to stay w/i spittin distance to 100, and in sight from there up. Am I willing to try?, Oh, it may happen someday, but don't tell my wife (his mother) or his (my d n L). What refrains the match is his commercial pilot's guts, not this retiree's.

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: 1965 3030 verses LT1 cam

I'll take my old 3200 lb.HP small block against your 3500 to 3600 lb.Hi tech C5 or 6 anytime. It's called weight to HP. ratio and weight transfer to the rear axle
Stephen Barrett (21558) 59,66,71,73

A base C6 coupe is about 3300 pounds curb weight. A Z06 is a little lighter and a Grand Sport is a little heavier, and the base 430 net HP LS3 has more net power than a L-71 and two more gears.

Bottom line is that new Corvettes weight about as much as an average equipped '67 small block, which didn't include A/C, have more power and better gearing with far superior off-the-line traction and braking and can pull 1g+ on a skid pad. Any of you guys who think a vintage Corvette can be massaged to equal the performance of a modern Corvette and still be something remotely close to original are just having a pipe dream.

Modern 911s weight more than a C6 compared to maybe about 2500 for a '67 911.

Makes you wonder about who has been true to the sports car axiom that light weight is essential.

Duke

[Clem Z.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

back in the day the only places that any dynos were places like the gulf research labs and that is why we went there at night to dyno engines. ron mccaferty was in charge of the dynos and he would let us in at night to play.

here is a article about the labs and the dyno sheet is signed by ron. http://www.racingicons.com/gs/004/gulf.htm

[Michael H.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

Do you have any detail configuration and dyno data for this engine that you can share?

Duke

Duke,

I don't remember many details about the engine. That was a looong time ago and I didn't build it. A sprint car engine builder in Indiana, Dickie Kercher built it. I know it was a Carrillo rod motor with iron heads but I remember little else. I think it had a roller cam for a while but that may have been the flat tappet at that time. Can't remember. Stahl headers. (expensive) I know it was a 355".
Kercher ran all of his engines on the dyno but I don't have any idea what kind of power this one made.

The car was a dedicated SCCA race car from day one out of New York. (#1330, a real FI car) The car probably only weighed around 2600 with the full cage.

Originally, the car ran consistant 2:40-2:42 lap times at Road America when it had a comp intake and 750 Holley carburetor.
When I installed the FI unit, it ran a best of 2:37. Yes, the car was FASTER with the FI. (I worked on that unit for a week straight)

I was able to get good power up to about 7500 RPM but the FI was the restriction, even though I increased it's original air flow by roughly 15%, or so. (guessing)
Delco FI/TI distributor with an MSD box.

It was a pleasure to drive with the FI. Zero issues.

When the car was sold, the next owner was pretty fast too until a cranking signal valve failed and he removed/sold the FI unit.

Today, the car is completely restored and runs on the Historic race car circuit around the midwest. I haven't seen it for decades though.

[Duke W.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

Three seconds a lap on a two-and-a-half minute course is about half-a-minute lead in a ten lap/25-30 minute race, which is typical for SCCA and vintage racing. That's HUGE!!!

So your data point supports my contention that a properly set up FI system can beat a legal manifold and carburetor in current vintage racing, but few guys are up the the challenge.

Stahl makes good stuff, and it's worth the price. Properly sized mandrel bent pipes with good mitering and welding for the highest flow coefficients are critical for peak average power in the upper third of the rev range. A poorly engineered/constructed racing exhaust system is a sure ticket to having a non-competitive car.

Cool looking racer. I like the color scheme - America's international racing colors!

Duke

[Joe C.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

Duke,

I don't remember many details about the engine. That was a looong time ago and I didn't build it. A sprint car engine builder in Indiana, Dickie Kercher built it. I know it was a Carrillo rod motor with iron heads but I remember little else. I think it had a roller cam for a while but that may have been the flat tappet at that time. Can't remember. Stahl headers. (expensive) I know it was a 355".
Kercher ran all of his engines on the dyno but I don't have any idea what kind of power this one made.

The car was a dedicated SCCA race car from day one out of New York. (#1330, a real FI car) The car probably only weighed around 2600 with the full cage.

Originally, the car ran consistant 2:40-2:42 lap times at Road America when it had a comp intake and 750 Holley carburetor.
When I installed the FI unit, it ran a best of 2:37. Yes, the car was FASTER with the FI. (I worked on that unit for a week straight)

I was able to get good power up to about 7500 RPM but the FI was the restriction, even though I increased it's original air flow by roughly 15%, or so. (guessing)
Delco FI/TI distributor with an MSD box.

It was a pleasure to drive with the FI. Zero issues.

When the car was sold, the next owner was pretty fast too until a cranking signal valve failed and he removed/sold the FI unit.

Today, the car is completely restored and runs on the Historic race car circuit around the midwest. I haven't seen it for decades though.

In post #29 I qualify the carburetor which will make big power. What kind of Holley 750 were you using before the Rochester?

[Stephen B.]

Re: 1965 3030 verces LT1 cam

Wow how I can wind your clocks up. I repeat C6 with 6INCH tires from a DEAD STOP verses C2 400HP small block. By the way turn off you traction control boys and I'll give you a race.
Stephen Barrett (21558) 59,66,71,73