General information on parts

[Michael G.]

In restoring my cars I often find that the actual definitive characteristics of any particular individual component are difficult and tedious, if not impossible, to determine. In some instances, one can learn enough about a particular part from inquiries here to attempt to restore or search for it, but those instances where a part become clearly defined, with adequate pics, are rare.

It would seem that the efforts I go through are repeated on a daily basis by others, who ask the same questions, and have the same concerns. I'm sure this has been going on for years. What an incredible waste of time.

In one of the accompanying posts, for instance, I learned that there are obvious differences between good and bad 63 wiper motors. There are clearly experts who know exactly what to look for, but, if I want to inspect my wiper motor to avoid deductions, the information provided in the JG, is not adequate to help me make an informed judgement in purchase or restoration, nor is it easy to find in other places.

More critically, if, as the posting states, there are well-known characteristics known to the poster (and judges), but not enumerated in the judging guide, how can they then be applied in judging?

I write this not to criticize anyone in the organization, but to ask why not create a database of photos and inane information regarding the original configuration of each component on a particular car?

These days, storage media for photos and such is very cheap and readily available, so cost should not be an issue. I know there are those who would say that it would take an immense amount of labor to compile such a database. True, but the hours being spent doing it repeatedly today dwarf those hours by a large, large margin. I could have photographed every part on my two 63's two hundred times in the hours I've spent trying to learn about their components.

If its all about money, though, NCRS could sell a synopsis of photos and other info for every part, individually, on-line, for a token fee. This would help immensely in searching for old parts, as well as helping restorers avoid the plethora of con-men now out there selling bogus parts as NOS, used original, or "indistinguishable" repop's.

Who wouldn't pay a dollar or so for complete info on the part they are searching for before beginning their search? I know I would.

Your comments are welcome.

[Richard M.]

Re: General information on parts

Mike....You like myself and many others would love to see this happen. Take a look at these threads below from about a year ago. Vito and I were in verbal discussions about it and it's on the "to-investigate" list. We all can imagine the immense task to create, coordinate and maintain such a database. It could be a full time job for hundreds of people. I have volunteered to help but no one has taken me up on it...........yet.

Rich

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...75731&uid=7264

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...76337&uid=4109

[Stuart F.]

Re: General information on parts

Then too, just when you think you have things nailed down, along comes the exception that can not be proved or disproved. As we all know, that's the nature of a limited production car and we've heard the stories how someone had to rush out to the hardware store to get some stuff just to keep the line rolling, i.e. my 63 came with a plain white shifter ball, not black. I took delivery of the car so I can verify that. Was it switched by someone at the dealer? I think not as the place only sold 2 Vettes that year. And so it goes. That's what makes this hobby more interesting - and expensive.

Stu Fox

[Michael G.]

Re: General information on parts

Stu, There are enough experts out there now to make a determination for every part. Maybe every part will have two or three acceptable variations, who cares how many, lets document them all.

[Stuart F.]

Re: General information on parts

Michael;

I understand your position, which was well stated BTW. I lost my original windshield wiper motor, starter, fan clutch, master cylinder and carburetor to an unscrupulous Corvette service center in Downers Grove, Illinois in the early 90's. I was able to replace the MC finally a couple years ago, but the rest is just too cost prohibitive to consider correcting at this point in my life. That is what will keep me from having it judged ever.

Stu Fox

[Chuck S.]

Re: General information on parts

A restorer's need for such a reference would be indirectly proportional to the originality of the car being restored, and to the restorer's experience with the year class being restored.

I assume the primary objective of such a reference would then be to short-cut the usual investigative, sweat-equity research process to accelerate the creation of experience; i.e make more experienced restorers quicker and easier. A more noble goal would be to turn out more competent physicians, or more dedicated clergymen, but that's outside of NCRS.

I'm sure a newby would love to make the process easier, but use of this reference would still require a little thought about a part's possible originality, and then cracking open the reference to see the pics. In some cases observed here, even that amount of effort would have been deemed too much. If an individual doesn't have enough interest to dig it out for themselves, and call for help only as a last resort, then my compassion for them is limited.

The claim of enough expertise to fully document all the part variations rings hollow to me. There is apparently not even enough expertise to avoid frequent heated wrangling over accuracy of a midyear judging guide...to the point where a moderator attempts to anticipate the direction of such discussion and cut it off. I don't have a dog in that fight, but it seems to me that problem should be a lot easier to solve than making a pictorial encyclopedia of parts, and yet, nothing is done about it.

The difficulty, as you said, will be to find enough experts having had experience with, and access to, enough part examples, and that are willing to contribute the huge numbers of hours necessary to document all the possibilities. To me, this seems like an undertaking closer to documenting all the snowflakes God ever made, than describing the 50 states.

I believe the expertise I have just described is the entire corporate membership of the NCRS; each of us has gained experience on a few bogus repro and service replacement parts we've encountered in restoration. What's actually required is an enthusiastic editor that will permanently capture photographic contribution here (and elsewhere), and begin creating a database. Over the years, it'll grow; and along the way, someone will need to decide when to periodically publish the cumulative evolving result. It'll likely be a lifework; like Einstein searching for the unified field theory

I certainly can have no objection to some individual taking this project on with NCRS blessing, however fruitless it may seem to make this inspiration reality. But the worth of such a reference would be closer to $100 than one dollar...especially if it had an appendix with all the possible fastener specifications, configurations and applications. But what do I know...I'm just a grouchy ol' geezer.

[Patrick H.]

Re: General information on parts

I have a link to the 300+ photos of my Bowtie 72 in my signature below, and encourge members to visit and learn. I also am more than willing to let them know what very few parts on the car have been restored or are not original.

I know that others here do the same, and it takes only a bit of time to upload them. While mine is only one car and one database, I encourge those with very original cars (or well scoring restored cars) to do the same so that more databases of more cars can be available.

Patrick

[Richard M.]

Re: General information on parts

Chuck....very well stated. You make many valid points. We all know how massive the effort would be.....

...but I would like to see it get started now. This membership started not that long ago. It was in the seventies. I'm 56. The last 10 years of my life have flown by. Actually 25 years when I got my '59. Where did it go? Flew by. My wife and went on a 5 hour drive in the '59 Sunday and we remembered our first ride. It was like yesterday.

We are losing our very senior members. Sad but true. Fact of life & beyond. The people who know this information could to pass it on to us all now. They are doing it with JG and Flight time and seminars, etc. We need more.

Who will be here on the tdb in 10 or 20 years? 30 Years? 40 Years? Our posts will be here long after we're all gone. We owe it to the future members to keep it all going.

Rich

[Michael G.]

Re: General information on parts

The effort could be as easy as seeking one volunteer for every year. A general notice could be sent to all members that if they are in possession of any part that is "known" to be original to any car, (or if they temporarily remove such a part from a car) they should photograph it from several angles, and email those photos to that model year's volunteer, with a brief synopsis of what is known about the part.

The volunteer would store the info on a hard drive, (or several hard drives, they are cheap) categorized by part number.

Over time, each part would likely have at least a few ostensibly "correct" photos sent in. At some point, a committee of the most experienced judges for that model year would sit down and go over the various submissions for each part.

The committee would then determine if, for each part, the information was adequate to define the part, its configuration, and the period of use. Many parts would have multiple configurations approved. Any part that had been thus confirmed, would be added the the NCRS list of known available parts.

The information thusly gleaned could be made available to all restorers, via email. A restorer could then simply email NCRS, ask for info on a given part, and for a small fee receive the photos and a synopsis via email.

The fee would pay for NCRS labor and allow a profit; the photos would save innumerable hours of searching and prevent restorers buying bogus parts or wasting time and money restoring a part incorrectly.

[Chuck S.]

Re: General information on parts

Chuck....very well stated. You make many valid points. We all know how massive the effort would be.....

...but I would like to see it get started now. This membership started not that long ago. It was in the seventies. I'm 56. The last 10 years of my life have flown by. Actually 25 years when I got my '59. Where did it go? Flew by. My wife and went on a 5 hour drive in the '59 Sunday and we remembered our first ride. It was like yesterday.

We are losing our very senior members. Sad but true. Fact of life & beyond. The people who know this information could to pass it on to us all now. They are doing it with JG and Flight time and seminars, etc. We need more.

Who will be here on the tdb in 10 or 20 years? 30 Years? 40 Years? Our posts will be here long after we're all gone. We owe it to the future members to keep it all going.

Rich

Yes, Rich, your concerns are completely justified. You are correct...a lot of experience is going to be lost as our most experienced members pass, and the pace of that loss will soon begin to accelerate.

Later in the day, I was still thinking about this thread, and I also realized something I hadn't considered in my original post...we are also losing original cars to restore. If my car hadn't been as original, the learning process would have been much longer and more difficult. Not too far down the road, not only will the experience of older restorers be lost, but the inventory of original cars to replenish that loss will be gone.

An increasing amount of restoration will be done on cars already gone over by restorers' hands. Without excellent documentation, what is found to restore will depend on the authenticity standards and craftsmanship of the previous restorer...authenticity will gradually be lost. Bowtie cars will help for the surface observations, but the option for taking them apart to compare the fine details of original parts won't exist.

Engineers are trained to be pessimists...to see the very worst case, and then figure out how to keep it from happening, or alternately, how to respond if it does occur. Many of us also tend to be perfectionists leading to career-long disappointment with the efforts of others, and ourselves.

Forgive me for seeing the vast scope of this project without envisioning a means to accomplish it with excellence.