Points & condenser '65 L84

[Blake W.]

I've searched the archives but have not come up with the info I need. I remember a while back discussions reguarding available ignition points to use. Not sure, but I don't believe the Delco is availablle for the SHP engine (and can't find the part number for those anyway). so, looking at Accel now. Is the correct set for this application Accel # 8104 (points and condenser)?? this has the 32oz spring. Any other recommendations? Lastly, is it recommended to adjust these points in the middle of the dwell range, 30 degrees?

Thanks, Blake

[Bill I.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

Blake, yes, do use the 28 to 32 oz. point set to prevent chatter at high revs. The suggested degree is indeed 30. Bill.

[Richard D.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

I've searched the archives but have not come up with the info I need. I remember a while back discussions reguarding available ignition points to use. Not sure, but I don't believe the Delco is availablle for the SHP engine (and can't find the part number for those anyway). so, looking at Accel now. Is the correct set for this application Accel # 8104 (points and condenser)?? this has the 32oz spring. Any other recommendations? Lastly, is it recommended to adjust these points in the middle of the dwell range, 30 degrees?

Thanks, Blake

Blake, this post I saved from Duke below while doing some research for points might be helpful.

Regards, Rich

Portion of Thread from member David with NAPA part numbers -
The NAPA part number for the points (hi-Perf) is CS7860. The condensor is RR175. Interestingly, the counter guy said he could tell from his computer they had never sold this particular set of points at any of their northwest Ohio stores since their computer system existed, which I assume was 20 years plus. They had only sold standard sets. Worth the extra few bucks just for pice of mind. The list price was $13.99.
David

Duke's response -
The distinguishing feature of these points is that they have higher breaker arm tension - 28-32 oz. versus 19-23 oz. for the standard sets, so I refer to them at "high breaker arm tension points". "Heavy duty" does not connote a useful differentiation from the standard 19-23 oz. set. I have CS786 as the NAPA part number, not CS7860 - the NAPA part number has always been confusing to me.
You can also buy these points under the Borg-Warner brand, A112HP, or Standard Ignition Bluestreak, DR-2371XP. The Delco D112P are long out of production.
This high breaker arm tension point set showed up about '65-'66 in some GM Muscle car engines, but were never OE on Corvettes or called out as retrofit for Corvettes even though mechanical lifter Corvette engines rev higher than any big block engine from other divisions.
I recommend them for all Corvette point ignition engines with redlines over 5500, which includes all mechanical lifter SBs.
On SHP engines it is also critical that the distributor be "blueprinted" - tight shaft bushings, shimmed up end play to two to seven thou, and a snug, wobble free breaker plate. I have no doubt that many engines have their original breaker plate which is probablly wobbly due to wear from the vacuum advance rotating it relative to distributor housing a zillion times.
Distributors are probably the most overlooked component of the engine, but a properly functioning distributor is critical to engine performance and economy. Most of them could use a good overhaul, which is a fairly simple task.
Distributor disassembly/assembly is easy (see the appropriate service manual for your car) and assuming the shaft bushings are okay, the parts to make it better than new - breaker plate, shaft shims, points, condenser, rotor, cap, grease, and upper shaft seal probably don't amount to much more than 30 bucks.
Duke

[Blake W.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

thanks guys for the help. I'll try NAPA and see what they have.

reguards, BW

[John D.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

thanks guys for the help. I'll try NAPA and see what they have.

reguards, BW

Hi Blake, Not sure but there may have been a typo in the post above on the NAPA part number for the points.
We use CS786P not CS7860. Now it may be difficult to find the CS786P so if that's the case ask for CS786. The P means perforated.
On our FI distributors we use these points exclusively even know old JD has/had access to the NOS Delco points (yuk). The SR Delco points were really crapola.
The condenser number above in Duke's post, etc is correct I do believe.
While you are at it if you don't want to spend boo coo bucks on a Delco Remy distr cap just ask your NAPA dealer to order you nice RR168. It's black (no lettering or numbers on the outside of the cap) with copper terminals. Probably 20 bucks or so. Nice low tower cap. (but not always) Sometimes NAPA will slip you a RR168 dist cap that has high terminals so check the box.
Now maybe there is a CS7860 set of points???. If so I apologize as not here to make fun of Duke. JD

[Richard D.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

thanks guys for the help. I'll try NAPA and see what they have.

reguards, BW

You will find both on the NAPA site, the "786" (the say "Heavy Duty" and "786P" ("Perforated"). PDF on both attached, hopefully. I did use the 786 on mine, and they did work well, and continue to do so. Been in there for a few years now.

BTW, Joe Lucia recommended this cap when I did research on what cap to use at the same time -

His post from then -
Jim, et al-----
The ACCEL cap is the way to go. For all single window applications the one you want is their number 8124. This is a BLACK cap and not the tan cap that ACCEL is noted for. It looks pretty much like the Delco cap except it is not quite as "shiny". It has brass contacts and it's manufactured from a superior alkyd material.

Joe Lucia
I did however, use the NAPA cap that Jack described as I was there, and it was handy to get it then. It also has worked well.

Rich

[Duke W.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

NAPA's points part numbers have always been somewhat vague and confusing, but here's what I believe to be true based on research I did a few years ago for a seminar I did for our local Southern California Chapter.

The high breaker are tension (28-32 oz.) points equivalent to the long discontinued Delco D112P is CS89.

All the others are standard breaker arm tension (19-23 oz.). The various part numbers include screw or spring teminal, ventilated/non-ventilated, different contact surface sizes, and uniset versions.

If you don't believe me, use the napaonline cross reference and type in the other brand part numbers for the high breaker arm tension points and see what comes up. And, remember, all are the same part made by Standard Motor Products. The only difference is the packaging.

Duke

[James G.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

I recommend them for all Corvette point ignition engines with redlines over 5500, which includes all mechanical lifter SBs. [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
On SHP engines it is also critical that the distributor be "blueprinted" - tight shaft bushings, shimmed up end play to two to seven thou, and a snug, wobble free breaker plate. I have no doubt that many engines have their original breaker plate which is probablly wobbly due to wear from the vacuum advance rotating it relative to distributor housing a zillion times.
Distributors are probably the most overlooked component of the engine, but a properly functioning distributor is critical to engine performance and economy. Most of them could use a good overhaul, which is a fairly simple task.
Distributor disassembly/assembly is easy (see the appropriate service manual for your car) and assuming the shaft bushings are okay, the parts to make it better than new - breaker plate, shaft shims, points, condenser, rotor, cap, grease, and upper shaft seal probably don't amount to much more than 30 bucks.
Duke [/QUOTE]

I AGREE 1000%. Over 90% of the Rochester fuel injection problems that would be brought to our shop from 1969-77 were DISTRIBUTOR related. That and improper valve adjustments. Spend the time and money to have an expert rebuild your distributor properly.

The transistor ignition works far better than a point system. Years ago I used a MSD-6AL box with the 064 TI distribultor on my 64 B/P Race car, and we picked up 3 seconds a lap. That was a great improvement in power and performance. Tucked the box behind the glove box and no one was the wiser at tech inspection.

[Tim S.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

The CS7860 always was the HP points set. They are still available (I searched all of the warhouses). Back in the day, this part number was provided to NAPA (Echlin) from Accel. Much has changed since then in the fact the Echlin / NAPA ignition is supplied by Standard Motor Products. My only hesitation to use the CS7860 is due to the lack of sales.

My own experience dictates the face of the contact will sometimes "haze over" thus increasing the resistance. While it can be rectified by a slight filing, I am still a little nervous about that.

The mentioned CS786P, I have recently used with good results. I must admit, I would not wind my own 65 L84 hard enough to need a heavy spring. I have sold the CS786P to some customers who push their cars. They work.

If I can be of any help, let me know.

Tim

[Duke W.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

So what do you think the NAPA/Echlin CS89 point set is?

Since you say you sell points perhaps you could get a hold of all the various NAPA/Echlin points and tell us the difference, particularly the spring tension.

Duke

[Tim S.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

So what do you think the NAPA/Echlin CS89 point set is?

Since you say you sell points perhaps you could get a hold of all the various NAPA/Echlin points and tell us the difference, particularly the spring tension.
Duke

The CS89 is listed as the HP set. I cannot argue with your findings as compared to the discontinued Delco points.

I took the time to call technical support. This was disappointing. They offered NOTHING regarding the technical aspects of the contact sets including the spring tension. At this time, the CS7860 is listed as a racing set (not for street use). I am only left to assume the CS7860 has a larger spring yet that leads to accelerated rubbing block wear.

If you like Duke, I can get them in and send them to you. Your backround would allow a much more objective examination, thus suggestions to TDB members.

Tim

[Tim S.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

I have found an old catalog and it details the CS89 as the 32oz spring. Just a little FYI for you guys, the distributor cap available from NAPA is still a really nice part (p.n. RR165) black cap with brass terminals. The F.I. cap p.n. is RR168.

I will also add, I do not like the NAPA rotors. I am running an MSD rotor is everything I work on. Hope this helps!

tim

[Duke W.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

The CS89 is listed as the HP set. I cannot argue with your findings as compared to the discontinued Delco points.

I took the time to call technical support. This was disappointing. They offered NOTHING regarding the technical aspects of the contact sets including the spring tension. At this time, the CS7860 is listed as a racing set (not for street use). I am only left to assume the CS7860 has a larger spring yet that leads to accelerated rubbing block wear.

If you like Duke, I can get them in and send them to you. Your backround would allow a much more objective examination, thus suggestions to TDB members.

Tim

I am assuming you are a NAPA dealer. Is that correct?

I'd be happy to inspect them all, and may want to keep (and pay you) for the CS89 if they are what I think they are - equivalent to the old Delco D112P.

But I don't want you to get stuck holding the bag - the old "electical parts not returnable" routine.

From my various research on the NAPA and other brand parts sites including the cross reference functions, here is what I think the NAPA/Echlin point set part numbers for Delco single point distributors are. As far as I can tell, all have screw terminals.

CS86 - 19-23 oz. standard contact area
CS89 - 28-32 oz., possible larger contact area than CS86
CS786 - 19-23 oz., possible larger contact area than CS86
CS786P - 19-23 oz., ventilated version of CS786
CS7860 - not sure
CS7860C - not sure

A larger contact area means less current density, so the points should theoretically last longer. This may be why the CS786 is described as "heavy duty".

I know Clem Z once mentioned that there was a point set with higher breaker arm tension than 32 oz - something like 48 oz. I don't remember the brand he mentioned, but I don't think it was NAPA/Echlin. In any event, with the 28-32 oz. set and a blueprinted distributor, the system is good to well over 7000, which is okay for the "327 LT-1" configuration with either a carburetor or FI. That's about as high revving a SB you can built and still have something that is reasonably streetable.

Duke

[John D.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

Nice to see the above discussion on proper points to use in FI distributors.
One thing I can tell you is that we have had zero complaints on the 58 to 65 FI distributor by using CS786P across the board.
Now let me tell you what may cause you problems. Using the incorrect engine oil pump is a worse sin that using whatever points turns you on.
Hi pressure or hi volume oil pumps can easily flood out the points with oil.
Don Baker and I were talking about this issue just today.
I mentioned to him that the Melling 55 oil pump is the correct one to use. He said for me to be careful saying that in that Melling makes other M55 pumps that have a suffix after the M55. Those pumps have a different spring.
Last of all it's getting close to the time where you all should have a nice little stock of spare points on the shelf as the writing is on the wall. They will be history before you know it.
The NAPA dealer here knows that too I bet. We are having trouble getting the CS786P's now. Also they aren't cheap.
But if you like CS89's go for it. I
NAPA used to have a great rotor but it's history.Recently I asked to see their latest rotor and it's pretty bad.
Look in "The Driveline" for a nice black rotor with riveted contact that has Bill Cluppers favorite extended tip on it. And very affordable.
Thanx, JD

[Tim S.]

Re: Points & condenser '65 L84

Duke,

You are right, I am a NAPA jobber. If you PM me your address, I'll get the points out to you. I am real curious to see what your findings will be.

John,

I am suprised you are having trouble getting the CS786P's. It may just be an issue of the particular jobber you are dealing not stocking up or asking the warehouse to stock up accordingly. If you like, PM me and I can set you up with some (either the CS786P or the CS89).

Best Regards,

Tim