Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
Hello NCRS... here goes my first post....... I have a 1959 that originally came with a 3 speed. Many years ago I picked up a T10 from a swap meet (date code 1960) , rebuilt it and have been enjoying it for the last 20 years with a Hurst Comp Plus set up (with stock looking shifter handle). On New Years day , 3rd gear came apart and took the cluster gear with it . Although I have the car back on the road with the original and trustworthy 3 speed, I want to get a 4 speed back in as the car is a true driver. I would like replace the T10 with a rebuilt Muncie M21 that I have . Any heads up advice on this swap? Will the Comp Plus shifter/handle from the T10 locate the shift handle properly on the Muncie (I have the rods/levers for muncie too) Are there any tranmission mount issues to watch concerning driveline angle. Drive shaft length issues? First pass it all looks very stright forward. Any wisdom from those who have made the swap? Thanks Charlie Campos Member # 964
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
Charlie, welcome to the TDB! Moved your post from the Help forum to the Technical forum. Help forum is for how to use the TDB questions. Gary....
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
Charlie,
I believe you can not use the Hurst with the Mincie unless you change the shift rods.
If the input shaft and output shaft splines are the same as the T10 you should not have any problems.
The only other thing is the speedometer cable which might exit on the passenger side on the Muncie.Comment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
I thought the Muncies all had the fine spline, which prevented the shaft from twisting. Anyhow, all one would have to do is replace the yoke, which is available. -Dan-Comment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
Charlie,
One more bite you thing is the year of the munci.
The front bearing retainer that fits in the bellhousing is larger on the 1'' shaft muncies.
If you have the 7/8" shaft I think your OK. I think 1965 or 6 was the first year of the 1" cluster shaft.
DOMComment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
I believe all early (up to 63) T10s have a 10 spline input shaft, if the Muncie has more splines you will have to change the clutch pressure plate.Comment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
Muncies through at least 68/69 were 10 tooth input shafts. Not certain if they went to fine spline in 70 or 71. So you need an older Muncie to mate up with the clutch. Or swap out the clutch at the same time you swap trannies to fine spline. I assume the pilot bearing is the same?Comment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
Charlie -
You'll also need the mounting adapter plate that was used on 62's; the trans mount pad/holes on the Muncie tailhousing are slightly forward of those on the T-10. All of the usual vendors have them.Comment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
Charlie,
Why not replace with another T10? There are plenty of them around.
I think they are excellent transmissions.
Bruce BComment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
I'll forego some of the above comments, and just provide you with all the information you need.
First, All 63-70 Muncies are the same length as the T-10. The 71-74 Muncies were 3/4in longer.
The T-10 has a coarse spline TAIL shaft and the Muncie has a fine spline (27 splines) tail shaft. Thus, you'll need a drive shaft yoke from a 63-later car (splines are the same for a Turbo 350 tranny which is common as dirt).
Your Hurst shifter and replica 56-58 shifter handle will fit fine, BUT you will most likely need an installation kit for a Muncie (mounting plate, rods, levers, etc). The mounting kit hardware for a 63-68 Muncie and 69-74 Muncie will be different (the MAJOR differences are the levers that attach to the shifter shafts have different slots). The 63-68 Muncie levers were retained with a stud, the 69-74 Muncie levers were retained with a bolt--------------MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
I said I wasn't going to respond to above comments---------------well I gotta.
The 7/8in cluster shaft (63-65) vs the 1in cluster shaft (66-74) has ZERO relationship to the fit of the front bearing retainer's fit in the hole in the bell housing!
Although, the 63 ONLY trannys did in fact have a smaller diameter front bearing retainer, which means if your Muncie is a 63 version, it will fit your bell housing hole, but there will be a BIG gap between the bearing retainer and the hole. This was ONLY A ONE YEAR odd ball configuration (no one knows why!).
The input shaft on all GM manual trannys (3sp, 4sp, etc) was the coarse, 10spline version through 70. Thus, if your Muncie is a 63-70 version, it will use the SAME clutch disc as the T10.
The 71-later manual trannys went to a fine spline (26splines) in 71. Thus, if your Muncie is a 71-later version, then you would have to change the clutch disc.
The tail shaft splines changed from coarse (16splines) in 62 to fine (27splines) in 63. The tail shaft splines on the Turbo 400 and 71-later Muncies and Super T-10s went to the bigger 32spline version.
As John Hinkley mentioned above, to install a Muncie in a 55-62 Vette, you will need the 62 ONLY rear tranny adapter mounting plate which is readily available at all Corvette vendors for about $20.
And why not replace your broken T10 with another T10? Because the Muncie is MUCH stronger and replacement parts are more readily available and usually somewhat cheaper (oh dang, I forgot, this is the NCRS site and you're not supposed to discuss anything except factory correctness/numbers matching, sorry--------------not).
I've been running this setup in the 56 (Muncie) for 35+yrs and it's just great.
Also, if you swap in a Muncie, I would STRONGLY RECOMMEND installing spacers (I use 1in square tubing) between the frame X-member and the tranny cross member. From the factory, the 62s got about 1/8in spacers, but the Muncie installation is better with thicker spacers. You can see BOTH the spacers and the 62 tranny mount plate below.
And the replica 56-58 shifter handle that is mounted to the Hurst. It comes through at the correct location.
Last edited by Tom P.; January 12, 2011, 10:14 AM.Comment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
Tom,
Great information.
Bruce BComment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
- I can bolt on the Hurst shifter/replica handle ,now with the T10 , and use the Hurst rods/levers that go with the Muncie
- I need to change the existing slip yoke on the drive shaft to a fine spline slip yoke which is the same as a Turbo 350
- I may need to install a longer speedo cable since on the Muncie the speedo cable enters on the right side, where the T10 entered on the left
Thanks again.
Charlie campos Member 964Comment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
Charlie -
The trans mount attaching pad on the bottom of the '62 T10-7D tailhousing was located further forward than the mount pad on '61 and earlier T-10 tailhousings; that's why the adapter plate was used in '62 with a T-10.Comment
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
Charlie,
If I remember correctly, the mounting plate (which attaches to the SIDE of the tail housing) for the Hurst shifter that is currently on your T10 is different for a Muncie. BUT, it should come in the installation/mounting kit for a 67 Muncie.
There is NO SUCH THING as a Hurst shifter/mount kit for a Muncie in a 62-earlier Corvette. Thus, if you order a mounting kit, it will need to be for a 63-67 Vette with a Muncie.
There are speedometer specialty places that make/sell extensions for speedometer cables. So, you can either obtain a longer speedo cable/housing, or, you can measure how much longer your existing cable needs to be, then contact (online) one of the speedo places and get an extension for your existing cable.
Regarding the spacers for the tranny cross member. To start with, the drive shaft angles of the early Vettes was somewhat extreme to begin with. Second, there is a difference in the dimension between the tail housing mount of a T10 and a Muncie, although, I've never bothered to measure the dimension since I've always had a Muncie (and prefer it).
Last, all the people that I've communicated with over many years, plus my own personal experience, seems to verify that the thicker spacers are better for reducing the U-joint angles. So far, mine ain't broke after 38yrs, so I ain't fixin' it!
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Re: Swapping a broken T10 to a Muncie for my '59
I may be wrong here and I forgot to measure yesterday when I was at the shop, but isn't the hole in his bellhousing to small to fit a 1967 munci front bearing flange?
DOMComment
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