Real from Fake

[Greg D.]

I was asked to help determine if a certain 65 that has a 365 HP 327 in it now was a real fuelie or not. The three previous owners claim it is. My recomendation was to check the radiator support which should have the large hole for the metal S-Tube. Emblems on the fenders - to look inside the fender and see what evidence shows. Original speed nuts, and no evidence of cross flags. Ignition wire harness also can help identify. All of this courtesy of my friend Jim Gessner. Any other ideas or places to look?

[Dan H.]

Re: Real from Fake

Greg, if it has filled in holes for the fender flags, was probably a 365, FI never had the flags.

[William C.]

Re: Real from Fake

Also look at the "X" brace on the rad support, originals had reinforcement tabs spot welded over the bottoms of the "X" where it meets the lower bar of the support, replacements were welded. As Dan says, no holes for flags should be in the fenders. VIN stamp on engine and stamp on the side of the plenum on the FI unit should match, those are some easy ones...

[Tom H.]

Re: Real from Fake

VIN stamp on engine and stamp on the side of the plenum on the FI unit should match, those are some easy ones...

I understood the original post to read that it probably has a replacement 365 in it now and the owner claims it was a fuelie.

[William C.]

Re: Real from Fake

Body holes for the FI emblem, and the Original Correct core support (not a service replacement ) as well as the holes on the inner fender from the FI air cleaner mount are the easiest to check.

[John D.]

Re: Real from Fake

Greg, If the top surround was replaced then no flag holes. See that the long FI emblem is mounted correctly. The stud closest to the door goes thru the firewall band and therefore the speed nut barely has enough catch on this stud.
Does the owner claim the FI unit is original to the car or is it a replacement also. If he says its the real deal give us some info on it.
Serial number from plenum tag is one clue. Like Bill Clupper mentioned and I am sure Jim Gesner mentioned check the RR corner of the FI unit where the distr vac advance fitting is located. See if the serial number of the car is stamped on the plenum. Sometimes the number is stamped several times.
Say the plenum has been restamped. Here's a trick. When the chassis was moving down the line the distributor vacuum advance hose was connected. Typically the worker stamped the serial number (part of it) below this rubber hose. 510XXXXX.
How is the distributor tag. Is it correctly dated. 111070 and then the date.
Check the holes for the air cleaner cannister. Get help on this. Check out the hardware. Is it an original AC or a repro. You were told about the core/radiatior support.
Hire someone to look the car over.
The FI emblem mounting is a good indication too.
Then remember with enough cash it's all bolt on. NO paper work, no engine then it's a gamble.
A ton of 64 Fi's were made. Only 1/2 as many 65's., Many of the 64 units are on 65's. No concrete number on how many 7380 service units. The numbers you see in print are not accurate. My info says 67 service units. That's a joke. My info says 2114 production units. That's good info.

Recap: Take close up pic of the riveted on plenum tag. Post it here. Run your finger across the tag to see if the letters stick up. Some say embossed.
If the tag is a flat silkscreen tag then it's a fake. If it belongs to a pal of mine he will be able to spot whether it's real or not.
Tip for the gang here on FI tags:
Did you know that Rochester Products did not use the number 8 as we know it. Look at this 8. The real deal RP 8 had a curly q on top of it. Like an upside down Q. No matter what year or what model of FI unit 57 to 65 there was NEVER an 8 used by RP that did not have a curly q on top right hand corner.
So 7017380 has this special 8. Some call it a small cased G.

Another story: Many years ago at a Bloomington Gold meet at Springfield, IL an old guy walked by my old yellow tent. We were poor then and didn't have nice trailer. Anyhow he said to JD. You have a very nice repro tag young man except for one glowing error. I said what is that sir. He said stay away from the 8's as yours are 100% wrong. Told me to go home and look and so I did. Never saw the man again. Tru story.

[Tom H.]

Re: Real from Fake

Another story: Many years ago at a Bloomington Gold meet at Springfield, IL an old guy walked by my old yellow tent. We were poor then and didn't have nice trailer. Anyhow he said to JD. You have a very nice repro tag young man except for one glowing error. I said what is that sir. He said stay away from the 8's as yours are 100% wrong. Told me to go home and look and so I did. Never saw the man again. Tru story.

Hey John , So, your 8's were truly wrong, or the old guy thought the goofy 8's on yours were wrong ??

[Loren L.]

Re: Real from Fake

Choke pipe hole in which exhaust manifold?

[William C.]

Re: Real from Fake

Dont forget to look for the dimple in the front surround lip to see if the body parts have been replaced.

[John D.]

Re: Real from Fake

Choke pipe hole in which exhaust manifold?

Loren, Drivers side exhaust manifold-the 942 no horn one has a choke tube hole going thru it for hot air (only). The other end of the choke tube hole is where the clean air tube plugs in.

Although I preach to midyear FI car owners to put a new heat tube in the 942 manifold or check to see if their original tube is rusted out few listen and the next thing that happens is the choke housing is full of carbon and it's a total mess. Then the choke doesn't work anymore. JD

[Tom R.]

Re: Real from Fake

Dont forget to look for the dimple in the front surround lip to see if the body parts have been replaced.

Bill,

Where is the dimple? Pix anyone?

[John D.]

Re: Real from Fake

Hey John , So, your 8's were truly wrong, or the old guy thought the goofy 8's on yours were wrong ??

Thomas, My 8's aren't goofy. Dead nuts.
YES the old guy said my 8 character was incorrect. He said go home and look at all the FI tags that have an 8. By God the old dude was right.
Never saw him again anywhere and he was quite knowledgeable about the old FI's as we talked for quite a while.
Now this same 8 was used in both the unit number and serial number.
For example: A '57 - 7014800, a 64-65 7017380. Same small case G all those years. Or maybe it's not a small case G. Maybe it's RP's characters.

So in looking at what you suspect is a replacement ID tag here is a quicky check. See if the numbers are raised and check out the 8's.
Also check out the #1. The one I just printed it a fake. Should not have the horizontal line. Just a slash with little flag on top. Can't find an example on keyboard that's correct.

[Loren L.]

Re: Real from Fake

Apparently in a way-too-subtle manner, I was trying to suggest to the examiner that if the seller was in any way using the 2 1/2" manifolds as being "leftovers from the FI", that there had better NOT be a choke hole on the psgr side. Sorry, should have re-invented the wheel....

Loren, Drivers side exhaust manifold-the 942 no horn one has a choke tube hole going thru it for hot air (only). The other end of the choke tube hole is where the clean air tube plugs in.

Although I preach to midyear FI car owners to put a new heat tube in the 942 manifold or check to see if their original tube is rusted out few listen and the next thing that happens is the choke housing is full of carbon and it's a total mess. Then the choke doesn't work anymore. JD

[Michael G.]

Re: Real from Fake

Tom, Here's a pic of the dimple

[Joel F.]

Re: Real from Fake

Tom, Here's a pic of the dimple

Just a note: the dimple is only potential evidence of original body panels, not of it being a fuelie; even a base engine car would have this dimple. Original panels along with appropriate body holes for badging might be a good sign, but the dimple alone does not necessarily mean fuelie.