64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

[Donald T.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

I think converting this car is a very bad idea. I would rather have a legit 300 HP car rather than a faked 365 HP (assuming 365 since there is no such thing as a '64 340). If the owner really wants a 365 HP car then why not just trade it in for a legit 365 HP?

[John S.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

I think converting this car is a very bad idea. I would rather have a legit 300 HP car rather than a faked 365 HP (assuming 365 since there is no such thing as a '64 340). If the owner really wants a 365 HP car then why not just trade it in for a legit 365 HP?

Sorry about the 340HP statement, I have 63 and was thinking of the high HP for thatyear, correct for 365 HP for 64. He is doing the 365HP conversion.
John

[Terry M.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

It is not illegal or immoral to modify an engine or even restamp it in most places, but it is counterfeiting if it's being done with the goal of deceiving others.

This is true in the USA ONLY IF there is no VIN derivative on the pad. Tamper with that VIN derivative stamp and you will be in violation of a Federal law here. I think it may be the same in Canada, but YMMV.

[Michael W.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

This is true in the USA ONLY IF there is no VIN derivative on the pad. Tamper with that VIN derivative stamp and you will be in violation of a Federal law here. I think it may be the same in Canada, but YMMV.

I believe you're right Terry, but was thinking of the OP's case of a faked engine code suffix.

[Paul J.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

To address John's question, obviously the engine would not be 'original' in the context of being the one the factory installed, but this factor of authenticity is not evaluated in Flight Judging. I won't touch the phrase 'numbers matching'.

It is not illegal or immoral to modify an engine or even restamp it in most places, but it is counterfeiting if it's being done with the goal of deceiving others.

Finally, somebody read John's post. He never said the 300 hp engine that's in it was original, only that it had earned a Top Flight award.

John, do you know if the block that's in it is original? If not, then it's a moot point as far as originality to change it. If it is original, then it would be a shame to alter an original car. JMHO.

Either way, it's neither illegal (except in Iowa, apparently) nor immoral as long as it's not misrepresented.

[Duke W.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of current NCRS policy is that if an engine is restamped to represent an engine configuration that was not original to the car, it is considered "counterfeit"; however, if a replacement block (or an original decked block) is properly date coded and VIN-stamped (and processed to duplicate the OE broach marks) to represent the original engine configuration that the car was built with, then it is legitimate restoration.

Thus, converting an original 300 HP configuration to a 365 HP configuration is considered counterfeit.

Duke

[Michael W.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

Thus, converting an original 300 HP configuration to a 365 HP configuration is considered counterfeit.

Duke

Correct- in this case the parties potentially being deceived are the judges.

[Joe C.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

The OP did not say if the Corvette was originally equipped with a 300 HP engine.......................or not. Unless, that 300 HP engine has an unmolested stamp pad.

There may be no way of knowing just what engine was originally installed in the car. It might have been a 300. Maybe a 365? Short of a full forensic examination, the person that the OP refers to may not have any dishonest intent. Right? Or not. He does imply that he knows that he is about to create a counterfeit Corvette, but it is not a direct statement.

If a Corvette without any paperwork is run through the "system", and is presented with a specific engine, say, a 427/435, and there are no telltale signs which immediately disqualify the Corvette as having been eligible to contain the 427/435 engine, then GIVEN THE FACT THAT IS IS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO FOOL AN EXPERIENCED JUDGE INTO PASSING OFF A RE-CREATED BROACHED STAMP PAD AS ORIGINAL, then that Corvette will likely fly through with a simple stamp pad surface deduction as "not typical....................

[Paul J.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

This is true in the USA ONLY IF there is no VIN derivative on the pad. Tamper with that VIN derivative stamp and you will be in violation of a Federal law here. I think it may be the same in Canada, but YMMV.

Terry, under the Iowa law, it's illegal only if you have "fraudulent intent", i.e. you are doing it to deceive someone for profit. That law also allows for restorations when the DMV issues a title, i.e., assigns a VIN to the car.

I know of no Federal Law preventing restorations. If this is wrong, please give us the citation so we can read it and put this old wives tale to bed.

Paul

[Michael H.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

Decades ago, when Dave Burroughs and I were discussion the plans for the construction of a correct clone L88 engine block for the 11 mile red 67 coupe, a question of legality came up.
David contacted someone from the state of Illinois and learned that it was, indeed, illegal to alter, replace or add any part of the VIN section to a replaced engine pad.
That's why, to this day, the pad has only the Tonawanda stamp but no part of the VIN stamp.

However, in the 60's, at Chevrolet dealers, it was required that the information from a replaced block be transfered to the new replacement block.

Take your pick.

[John H.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

However, in the 60's, at Chevrolet dealers, it was required that the information from a replaced block be transfered to the new replacement block.

Take your pick.

And hardly any dealers ever did that - just like the constant threats from Central Office to stamp the delivery date on the VIN plate.

[Domenic T.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

Decades ago, when Dave Burroughs and I were discussion the plans for the construction of a correct clone L88 engine block for the 11 mile red 67 coupe, a question of legality came up.
David contacted someone from the state of Illinois and learned that it was, indeed, illegal to alter, replace or add any part of the VIN section to a replaced engine pad.
That's why, to this day, the pad has only the Tonawanda stamp but no part of the VIN stamp.

However, in the 60's, at Chevrolet dealers, it was required that the information from a replaced block be transfered to the new replacement block.

Take your pick.

Michael,
I have a replacement block of the 60's in my 1967, the block is within the warantee period and it is a CE (counter exchange ) block.

DOM

[Michael H.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

Michael,
I have a replacement block of the 60's in my 1967, the block is within the warantee period and it is a CE (counter exchange ) block.

DOM

Over the counter and service fitted and partial block assy's throughout most of the 60's came from GM with blank unstamped pads. It wasn't until some time in about 1969 that the CExxxxxx stamp began to appear.

The CE stamp refered to Chevrolet Engine.

[Domenic T.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

Over the counter and service fitted and partial block assy's throughout most of the 60's came from GM with blank unstamped pads. It wasn't until some time in about 1969 that the CExxxxxx stamp began to appear.

The CE stamp refered to Chevrolet Engine.

Michael,
I would like to know for sure and am not in disagreement BUT
My block has late 67 early 68 casting #'s, I have to check again but I think it is a D ?? 8 block.

Also once and for all CE ? some say chevrolet engine and some say counter exchange. It isn't that important as they are of the same, but the last argument/ discussion I read here (maybe I haven't read all) said it was counter exchange.
I don't care, but wonder why they would have to tell you that it was a chevrolet engine?

DOM
I have one and I think I will have to refer to it as a CE from now on. It seems that

[Terry M.]

Re: 64 conversion from 300 HP to 340 HP car

Terry, under the Iowa law, it's illegal only if you have "fraudulent intent", i.e. you are doing it to deceive someone for profit. That law also allows for restorations when the DMV issues a title, i.e., assigns a VIN to the car.

I know of no Federal Law preventing restorations. If this is wrong, please give us the citation so we can read it and put this old wives tale to bed.

Paul