Shades of Black

[Mike R.]

I recieved my judging guide and Stingray Guidebook and there are referenced at least four(!!!) types of black paint.

There are:

Low gloss foundry black (master cylinder)
Semi Flat Black
Semi Gloss Black
Gloss Black

I am having a lot of parts including the frame powder coated. The powder coater talks about "percentage gloss" There is 3%, 10% 20% up to 90%. Does anyone know how to reconcile the two nomenclature systems? Specifically what gloss % should the frame be?

Thanks

[Chuck S.]

Re: Shades of Black

I recieved my judging guide and Stingray Guidebook and there are referenced at least four(!!!) types of black paint.

There are:

Low gloss foundry black (master cylinder)
Semi Flat Black
Semi Gloss Black
Gloss Black

I am having a lot of parts including the frame powder coated. The powder coater talks about "percentage gloss" There is 3%, 10% 20% up to 90%. Does anyone know how to reconcile the two nomenclature systems? Specifically what gloss % should the frame be?

Thanks

Mike, I'm about to burst your bubble. My opinion is authentic restoration can not be achieved by following someone else's cookbook or formula.

(1) In the first place, as experienced as the authors/editors of our judging guides are, they don't always have fully correct descriptions of gloss levels in the judging guides. (Say it ain't so!!! Yes, Mike, I'm afraid it's so... )

For example, chassis parts originally dip-painted with GM black primer are described as semi-gloss black...it WAS NOT semi-gloss black, it was more like an egg shell or satin. Air cleaner housings and blower motors are described as "gloss black"...if you actually paint them true gloss black, they will be way too glossy; it's probably closer to semi-gloss black. If you uniformly apply equivalent industry gloss levels to the descriptions in the judging guides, you will lose plenty of nickel and dime points on gloss levels if the judges have ever seen an original car.

(2) Powder coating was not the original method used for finishing parts on these cars. Powder coating is extremely durable, but if judges can discern the finish as being powder coated, you will lose judging points. These cars had thin coats of paint to mimimize cost. Powder coating is typically thicker, and additional film thickness, even of conventional paint, is discernable by judges.

That was the bad news. The worst news is that because of it's durability, powder coating is next to impossible to remove. If you screw up on the gloss level (if it's your first time and you're asking what gloss levels are, that's likely) it will next to impossible to fix it.

But...all that discussion above is not an answer to your original question. If you still want it, one paint company's suggested gloss scale from Wikipedia is shown below. I had to look it up because I have never used it routinely. Who knows if another company's is the same.

• Flat (1-9% gloss)
• Low Sheen (10-25% gloss)
• Eggshell (26-40% gloss)
• Semi Gloss (41-69% gloss)
• Gloss (70-89% gloss)

[Paul J.]

Re: Shades of Black

Mike, Chuck's right. Don't forget that gloss levels are affected by the application method, film thickness, and even the drying time.

As for powder coating, I would'nt do it if you're going to have your car judged (I know, some people have'nt lost points) or if there is a chance that you will ever do partial restorations or touch ups on the coated parts.

Powder coating is a tremendously durable finish, but most people using it don't think it through. Is your car going to spend most of its time driving on sunny days and sitting in a garage, or will it be driven daily in the snow and ice of rust belt winters? In most cases it's just unnecessary, not to mention the difficulty in removing it for repair and restoration. Just my opinion.

Paul

[Mike R.]

Re: Shades of Black

Thanks Chuck I appreciate the advice. I was afraid that the information might not really be availible.

These are tought decisions On one hand, I want every bolt head to be correct, on the other, I will be driving on radial tires and using modern lubricants and I really want the durability of powder coating on the frame. My goal is to achieve a Top Flight award but I am not trying to build a 100% car.

Given what you have told me, what black would you use for something like the power brake booster (conventional paint)

Thanks

Mike

Mike, I'm about to burst your bubble. My opinion is authentic restoration can not be achieved by following someone else's cookbook or formula.

(1) In the first place, as experienced as the authors/editors of our judging guides are, they don't always have fully correct descriptions of gloss levels in the judging guides. (Say it ain't so!!! Yes, Mike, I'm afraid it's so... )

For example, chassis parts originally dip-painted with GM black primer are described as semi-gloss black...it WAS NOT semi-gloss black, it was more like an egg shell or satin. Air cleaner housings and blower motors are described as "gloss black"...if you actually paint them true gloss black, they will be way too glossy; it's probably closer to semi-gloss black. If you uniformly apply equivalent industry gloss levels to the descriptions in the judging guides, you will lose plenty of nickel and dime points on gloss levels if the judges have ever seen an original car.

(2) Powder coating was not the original method used for finishing parts on these cars. Powder coating is extremely durable, but if judges can discern the finish as being powder coated, you will lose judging points. These cars had thin coats of paint to mimimize cost. Powder coating is typically thicker, and additional film thickness, even of conventional paint, is discernable by judges.

That was the bad news. The worst news is that because of it's durability, powder coating is next to impossible to remove. If you screw up on the gloss level (if it's your first time and you're asking what gloss levels are, that's likely) it will next to impossible to fix it.

But...all that discussion above is not an answer to your original question. If you still want it, one paint company's suggested gloss scale from Wikipedia is shown below. I had to look it up because I have never used it routinely. Who knows if another company's is the same.

• Flat (1-9% gloss)
• Low Sheen (10-25% gloss)
• Eggshell (26-40% gloss)
• Semi Gloss (41-69% gloss)
• Gloss (70-89% gloss)

[Mike R.]

Re: Shades of Black

OK you guys may prevail on me. What paint is the right paint to use on the frame?



Mike

Mike, Chuck's right. Don't forget that gloss levels are affected by the application method, film thickness, and even the drying time.

As for powder coating, I would'nt do it if you're going to have your car judged (I know, some people have'nt lost points) or if there is a chance that you will ever do partial restorations or touch ups on the coated parts.

Powder coating is a tremendously durable finish, but most people using it don't think it through. Is your car going to spend most of its time driving on sunny days and sitting in a garage, or will it be driven daily in the snow and ice of rust belt winters? In most cases it's just unnecessary, not to mention the difficulty in removing it for repair and restoration. Just my opinion.

Paul

[Chuck S.]

Re: Shades of Black

Thanks Chuck I appreciate the advice. I was afraid that the information might not really be availible.

These are tought decisions On one hand, I want every bolt head to be correct, on the other, I will be driving on radial tires and using modern lubricants and I really want the durability of powder coating on the frame. My goal is to achieve a Top Flight award but I am not trying to build a 100% car...

These are tough decisions.

Don't be confused by advice you get here that's directing toward the 100% car. We're not insisting you do anything to your car. It's your car, and you chose how you want to restore it. We're just giving you advice for the perfect example because we don't know what level of trade-off you are willing to accept for durability or performance. Some things, like internal engine components, lubricants, and most adhesives are invisible, and won't have any affect on your judging score. Exceptions to keep in mind are if the invisible components change the engine sound, or if lubricants are visible and obviously a different color or consistency.

...Given what you have told me, what black would you use for something like the power brake booster (conventional paint)...

I will now give you a third caveat, which is likely one possible reason for differing opinions on gloss levels:

(3) The gloss level of some components can vary from one car to another in the same model year, and on cars having close job numbers.

The power brake booster you mention is a perfect example. Many original cars seen at meets have an almost flat black on the power brake booster; others are what I would describe as semi-gloss. Some might say, well, it's old and it's weathered...I disagree, it's too flat in a relatively protected area to have ever been much more glossy. Is it wrong?...ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Mine was semi-gloss (my description) and that's the way I restored it. I can't remember what paint was used, but at that time, I was using a lot of PPG acrylic enamel; I probably flattened it to gloss level near the original gloss using PPG's flattener. It is very difficult to go into Home Depot and come out with an aerosol can that exactly replicates the gloss level you desire; sometimes you get lucky.

Chevrolet air cleaner housings from this era have appeared consistently the same to me since the first Chevy I ever owned. My description would be semi-gloss or slightly more glossy, but I would have to actually see a sprayed, cured example of a paint before I said it was right.

On my car, the frame had almost exactly the same gloss as PPG DP-90 black epoxy primer...maybe just a little more gloss that would not be indiscernable to most individuals. Unfortunately, you can not buy DP-90 epoxy primer anymore...you have to buy DPLF-90 instead (LF means "lead-free"). I would say the gloss level of DPLF-90 is unchanged from DP-90. Other restorers have said their frames had more gloss...if judging, I would deduct for frames with too much gloss.

[Domenic T.]

Re: Shades of Black

Mike,
It's a hard decision to make. I chose to powder coat so the car won't ever have to come off the frame again and my great great grand children can see what I did.
If you want to preserve the car and have it look great that is what you will have to do.
If you want short term beauty (which will last as long as we will) then do it the factory way.
I painted my frame in 1971 and it looked like crap 5 years later. Now that I have to do it over again I decided to use the best lasting method so that it I will never have to do it again.
You be the judge, and decide how long you want it to look good.
There will be guys that painted their frames that will say their frames still look good, and I believe them. Some will say it's the prep and the choice of paint, and that is true. But you get it all but the points when you powder coat. I didn't want to do the frame all over again down the road, I wanted to know it was permantly done.
By the way you can sand powder coating and paint over it for any touch up work and I was told that they now can spot coat small areas that were damaged on the car.

DOM

[Chuck S.]

Re: Shades of Black

...By the way you can sand powder coating and paint over it for any touch up work and I was told that they now can spot coat small areas that were damaged on the car...

Just to be clear...If your reason for touch it up is to adjust gloss level for the next judging, you're not going to pull it off successfully in my opinion. If it was powder coated, it was probably too thick to begin with...you won't be able to thin it by sanding. If they deducted for gloss the first time, they'll probably nail you for excessive film thickness the second time.

Don't get me wrong: I LOVE the idea of powdercoating (Man, those front upper and lower control arms would REALLY be beautiful powdercoated to the proper gloss level ). I also HATE entropy, but I see it's effects in the mirror every morning. You have pretty much burned the originality bridge when you powder coat...my opinion is you can't go back.

[Domenic T.]

Re: Shades of Black

Chuck,
What I meant was if you have to weld or get in an accident.
I found a crack in my motorcycle frame that I had powder coated. I had to weld it, sand it then match paint the black finish with coumpound.

DOM

[John H.]

Re: Shades of Black

On the other hand, a "finish" deduction for the frame is only two points.

[Dick W.]

Re: Shades of Black

When we did a lot of restorations, we used DP or DPLF-90 as a primer on the bare metal. We used PPG K-36 as a primer surfacer over the DP. Did what sanding we needed to and then sealed it with DP, reduced 100%. For the final coat we used PPG 9300 flattened with DX815 to about a 70% gloss. We thought that this was about as close as you could get to the crap that GM used. Had several Duntov and BG gold winners

[Steven S.]

Re: Shades of Black

If you decide to powder coat, there are different chemistries out there - epoxy, polyester, acrylic and combinations. A lot of powder coating is used on today's cars. Underhood, under body powder coatings are usually epoxy. Ford 20 gloss, GM 30 gloss and Chrylser 40 gloss. These would be terms your powder coater would be familiar with. The epoxy will have excellent corrosion resistance but lousy weather ability - thus under hood and under body.
Also the powder coater can vary gloss by over or under curing the coating. Many will buy one product and over or under cure to get desired gloss for parts for a particular manufacturer.
Steve

[Alan S.]

Re: Shades of Black

Hi Mike,
In deciding what level of gloss you might want to use you may want to take a look at the photo albums members Kevin Goodman and Patrick Hulst have of their BowTie cars. You can see some examples of typical black paint finishes on their cars. If you go to their profile pages you'll see the links to their pictures.
Have fun!
Regards,
Alan

[Michael F.]

Re: Shades of Black

when I restored the frame on my 67 in late 80s, I used GM frame paint I bought thru dealer, seems like I remember it being asphalt based but gloss was right on, now I am told it has been discontinued for years. oh well.

[Steven S.]

Re: Shades of Black

Another consideration when using powder coatings is to have your painter plug all bolt and screw holes as they will fill with powder and have to be reemed out when outing it back together.