64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

[Tim D.]

I'm just finishing a complete restoration on a 64 Vette. I am very disappointed in the fact that my 4-speed is whining in all 4 gears. It seems the loudest in 1st (maybe). I have only driven the car about 12 miles. Everything is new and or rebuilt. The trans was "supposedly" completely rebuilt by a pro out on the west coast. Also, I think from time to time, I am hearing what I think to be a throw-out bearing noise (softly) sometimes when I'm sitting in nuetral with the clutch out. When I push the clutch in, the noise goes away. It is not the loud grinding one hears when the throw out bearing goes bad, but perhaps a sign of things to come. Any thoughts would GREATLY be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tim

[Edward J.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

Tim,
Sounds like you may have a some sort of bearing problem between the input/output shafts or possiably the counter shaft bearings. either of these will cause excessive play causing the gears not to mesh correctly. more than likely the input/ output area.

[Joe L.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

I'm just finishing a complete restoration on a 64 Vette. I am very disappointed in the fact that my 4-speed is whining in all 4 gears. It seems the loudest in 1st (maybe). I have only driven the car about 12 miles. Everything is new and or rebuilt. The trans was "supposedly" completely rebuilt by a pro out on the west coast. Also, I think from time to time, I am hearing what I think to be a throw-out bearing noise (softly) sometimes when I'm sitting in nuetral with the clutch out. When I push the clutch in, the noise goes away. It is not the loud grinding one hears when the throw out bearing goes bad, but perhaps a sign of things to come. Any thoughts would GREATLY be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tim

Tim------


Are you sure no one installed an M-22 gearset in this transmission? There was never an M-22 gearset made for a 7/8" countergear shaft Muncie, but I suppose someone could have modified the main case, assuming the case is an original 64 case.

[Domenic T.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

I'm with Ed on the cluster gear, especially if it IS noisier in 1st gear and hopefully not so loud when the power is not going thru the cluster when in 4th gear.
Also when you push the clutch in you stop the input shaft from turning as the clutch disc stops turning.

DOM

[Eric D.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

Tim, When your trans was rebuilt, what new parts were install???
It seems that the term "rebuilt" mean different things to different people...
Over the last 10years or more about 20% of the Muncie work I do is fixing other people "rebuilds"...
Was the rebuilder just a trans shop(working on everything), or specializing in Muncie's??? Crash

[Tim D.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

Thanks guys. I really appreciate everyone's input. I hope to dig into this problem a little deeper this week. Is there any way I can resovle this problem without pulling the tranny out? As we all know, it is not as much fun to remove and install now that the body is back on and all new interior in place etc.

What/how should I test drive to determine the problem? Go through all gears, step on gas, let off gas etc? It DOES shift very nicely. I adjusted the linkage etc when it was out of car and all gears shift very smoothly and tightly.

I put Moroso SAE 90 climbing gear lube in it. Is that ok or could that be the problem? It was recommended in one of the Corvette reproduction catalogs as being really good stuff. I checked the lube level yesterday and it was in fact about 1/2 pint low. I believe the shop manual calls for 2.5 pints for a 4-speed. I topped it off and the noise is still there. I only have around 20 miles on the car.

If I have to remove transmission, what do you all recommend? Who can I take the tranny to or ship it to that is the best on diagnosing/assessing and fixing the problems? Will they need to hear and feel what it is doing in the car BEFORE I remove it? Would I be better off taking the whole car to a shop so they can hear it, remove it, fix it and reinstall it? I already paid big money to a so called "expert" that was supposed to have this thing ready to go to I could avoid this situation ( I will be calling him this week, but I'm sure he will say it's out of warrenty, who installed it etc). I live just outside of St. Louis, MO. Does anyone know of a shop or person that is near me or will I need to ship it half way across the country AGAIN?

Finally, do you think I am dealing with two separate issues? One being the throw-out bearing issue.....slight noise from time to time with car in neutral and clutch out. When I push in the clutch, the noise goes away. I have been down this throw-out bearing road before and if I remember correctly, this will get worse until it just growls. Is the bearing installed or lubed improperly? Second issue.....the tranny, input shaft, bearing or ??....is that a completely separate issue which involves pulling tranny and taking it apart to make the whinning go away? The car whines so loudly that I can't even enjoy hearing my exhaust note!!!!!!

Thanks for any and all thoughts.
Tim

[Edward J.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

Tim, with the work on transmission, is possible that as Joe L. says maybe the wrong parts install, I would call and talk to the transmission rebuilder and see if he has a detailed parts replacement parts list. It seems that when the transmission was apart he would have replaced all the bearing, blocking rings as most rebuild kits come with these parts, but if shafts or gear sets were done maybe something is mismatched.

As far as the noise in neutral , did you replace the pilot bearing while apart along with the T/O Brg. clutch disc and pressure plate? machine flywheel ? All is essential to have a true running throw out brg on the pressure plate fingers, with the car running at idle take a look at the clutch fork and see if there is any movement, the fork should be steady without movement.if there is you have found your problem- flywheel runout or a bad pressure plate.

[Tim D.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

I will call the trans rebuilder. Also, I replaced all parts.........everything is brand new....TO bearing, pilot bushing, clutch, pressure plate, clutch fork, clutch fork return springs etc. I am not a certified mechanic, so perhaps I didn't install and/or lube something correctly. Tim

[Duke W.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

If you push in the clutch and there is no noise it is not the clutch release bearing. This bearing is only under load when the clutch is pushed in.

Some slight noise is normal with the clutch out, idling in neutral. If the noise is excessive, it could be bearings in the transmission.

Transmission bearing noise is usually loudest in the first three gears, but less noticeable in fourth gear.

So your first question should be: Were all bearings replaced, and if so were they the correct part number and were they installed properly?

Audit your records and talk to the guy who rebuilt the transmission.

Duke

[John H.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

Tim -

Make sure the throwout bearing is installed correctly on the clutch fork; the ears of the stamped anti-rattle spring on the fork MUST be inside the same groove as the ends of the fork, not rearward of the flange. The (poor) design allows it to be assembled wrong, and if it's done that way, it will be noisy, and will cause problems trying to adjust the linkage for proper pedal free play (1" to 1-1/4").

[Tim D.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

A huge thanks to all who have replied. I am trying to get the squeal out of my left front drum brake that sounds like someone is blowing into a "harmonica"....see other post. Then, I will concentrate on the transmission issue. I really appreciate all of the thoughts and help. Duke, I will drive the car again and listen carefully for what you described and also I will call the tranny rebuilder and ask the questions you suggested etc. John, the drawings are fantastic! I studied the correct installation of the throw-out bearing in great detail before I installed it (because I have had trouble with past installations) and I am fairly certain that I did install it correctly as your drawing illustrates. I will report back just as soon as I figure out what is going on. Thanks again everyone! You guys are GREAT! Tim.........AKA the guy that has to do everything 3X to get it right.

[Joe C.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

Here you go:

[Tim D.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

Thanks Joe. Great photo. I'm almost positive that is the way I lubed and installed the TO bearing on the clutch fork. It's been a couple of years due to the restoration taking so long. I only have about 20 miles or so on the car. I just got a 4 wheel alignment and now I'm re-torquing all of my front and rear end parts now that the car has been driven and bounced around a little. Next, I'm going to concentrate on the squeal that is coming from my left front drum brake. It has ALL new parts and it sounds like someone is blowing into a harmonica when I step on the brakes hard.

Then I will zero in on this transmission issue. I REALLY appreciate everyone's input as I try to figure out what the problem(s) is/are. I will report back ASAP.

Thanks again,
Tim

[Jim T.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

Thanks Joe. Great photo. I'm almost positive that is the way I lubed and installed the TO bearing on the clutch fork. It's been a couple of years due to the restoration taking so long. I only have about 20 miles or so on the car. I just got a 4 wheel alignment and now I'm re-torquing all of my front and rear end parts now that the car has been driven and bounced around a little. Next, I'm going to concentrate on the squeal that is coming from my left front drum brake. It has ALL new parts and it sounds like someone is blowing into a harmonica when I step on the brakes hard.

Then I will zero in on this transmission issue. I REALLY appreciate everyone's input as I try to figure out what the problem(s) is/are. I will report back ASAP.

Thanks again,
Tim

Tim with only 20 miles on the car you are still braking in the new drum brakes. My new disc brake pads had a notice on the box about breaking them in, not ready for the races right out of the box.

[Joel A.]

Re: 64 4-speed transmission whine in all gears?

If the noise is loudest in 1st, the problem is likely either the rear countershaft bearing, or the rear mainshaft bearing.
It's entirely possible that ALL the 120 or so roller bearings didn't get put back in the cluster gear, or they got put in incorrectly.
If there were any gears replaced, it's highly possible that the gears are not correct...the cut and angle are different on some years, but the tooth counts, and all other dimensions are the same. The trans will go back together fine, but will be noisy as heck. I've run into that particular issue more than I care to remember. Seems sometimes even the vendors don't know for sure what they're selling...
Whatever it is, I wouldn't continue to drive it with the noise...it will NOT get any better.