Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

[Stuart F.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Thanks Dom. I'll check that too. Having the double belts I didn't consider that possibility, but best to cover all bets.

Stu Fox

[Joel T.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Dan; Thanks. I'll check it out.

Joel; I have not re-charged the cooling system as yet to test it further, but after it cooled down Saturday, when I started it to move it into the garage, it cranked a while which I guess I should expect. But, once it started, it seemed to run well with no apparent noises or smoke, etc. I didn't leave it run too long, just enough to make those observations.

The lower hose (spring) felt firm from the engine to the radaitor (no apparent weak spots). The hoses were replaced in July 1996 (less than 6k miles ago). Other than calendar age, they look like new. When I flushed the system this past spring, I had the top hose off and it looked very clean inside. The only crud I got was from the block drains, and that I expected from the lower cooling passages in the block. Every engine I've done this way blew out a lot of crud from there.

My heat riser butterfly operates very freely. However, I too am intending to replace it with a spacer soon (I'm waiting for some cooler weather to do my projects). I ground out the spacer round (no valve flats) so I'm looking forward to see how it works.

I agree that I really need to check out the engine closely with a leak down test. It was on my project list anyway. In the back of my mind, I fear a worse case scenario with perhaps ring damage or even a blown head gasket. My son, who was behind me, said he saw a lot of blue/black smoke each time I downshifted, along with the white coolant steam just before I stopped. I tend to goose it for an RPM match before I let out the clutch when I'm in a hurry to whoa, so maybe that's some of what he saw. He's a certified A & P as well as a commercial pilot, but that don't mean he knows cars all that well.

Thanks to you both for your responses. I'm going to have the cap tested this afternoon, and may be able to fill it with water and do some more checks.

Stu Fox

Stu;

The steam/smoke could be two separate issues.. If your system was overflowing that could explain the steam. The smoke, if it is not new, could be valve guides.... I seem to recall that smoke on decel was valve guides while smoke on acceleration was rings.. Is the underside of your car wet with antifreeze... you know that slimy stuff which never seems to go away.....

The other thing you can do, after you are comfortable running the engine again and after it is full of coolant... is to run it at a high RPM and watch that lower hose... if it is a problem, you will see it collapse...

Other than that, I might go back to basics... check dwell and timing and let it idle to see what transpires... after that compression test!

Keep us posted,

Joel

[Stuart F.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Joel;

I just returned from my friendly local Advance Auto Parts store, AKA, "Chinese Auto Parts Outlet". I asked them if they had the means to check the pressure on my Cap and was told they have the equipment, but I'd have to rent it at $170.! Wow! I told them that I think I could buy up to half dozen new repro caps for that amount. Soooo, I sweet talked them into letting me use their kit in the store. That's quite a kit with all the adapters to pressure check most all cooling systems, as well as just caps. I followed the directions carefully and tested it three times. It holds right up to 15 lbs, w/o any noticeable leak down over several minutes. Now, what does that tell me? I expected to see a release at 15# or above, but I'm not sure what I was looking for because it would not pump above 15# either. I thought something may be askew with their pump so I blew it down and there was a lot of water in it. It tested the same even after that.

The simple thing to do now I guess is to do a fill with water and check what I can for now. Wife has plans for me to go with her to Boston and drive with friends up into Connecticut later this week. Anyone know how the color is there now? It is hard on my priorities with my Vette ailing.

Stu Fox

[Terry M.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Stu;

The steam/smoke could be two separate issues.. If your system was overflowing that could explain the steam. The smoke, if it is not new, could be valve guides.... I seem to recall that smoke on decel was valve guides while smoke on acceleration was rings.. Is the underside of your car wet with antifreeze... you know that slimy stuff which never seems to go away.....
Joel

Good you mentioned that slimy stuff Joel.

Stu, Clean that coolant off your fiberglass. Lots of water works, but a little soap will also help. If you leave that coolant on the fiberglass for long it will soften the glass, and then you will be in a fine kettle of fish.

[Stuart F.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Terry; glad you emphasized cleaning off any antifreeze. On Saturday, soon after I pulled into my driveway, I got the hose out for both my 63 and my son's 96 GS. He was right behind me. Also, when I started out at the stoplight in front of him, my RR tire spun in the puddle and sprayed him, and he thanked me. After mine got through pucking, I rinsed off the under side of the car and the battery. Ironicallly, it seems most of the coolant came out of the overflow hose with a small amount steaming out of the cap on to the battery. The engine was quite hot, so I tried not to hit it directly with the hose.

After I charge it with water for testing, I'll back it out again and rinse the bottom a second time just to make sure.

Stu Fox

[Terry M.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Usually the "rent" is a deposit to ensure you return the kit. They refund the deposit when the entire kit comes back. You might consider trying another store in order to use a different kit. The pump should, if functioning, go over 15 psi, and you should see the cap release the pressure at 15 or more psi. These rental tools take a lot of abuse, so it is not too surprising they may not work correctly.

There is also a chance that the cap is not sealing properly to your tank, but that is harder to check. I don't know any to verify that except a close visual inspection.

That kit, if you can get it on a lend lease, will also check the cooling system on your car. One of the adapters should allow the pump to fit on the coolant tank and see if the system holds 15 psi. Do not go over that pressure. Just see the system holds it. There might be a leak elsewhere that prevented the system from holding the 15 psi. If the system is filled with water and it bleeds down one can usually see the source of the water leaking.

[Terry M.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Good going. I'm glad you got to it promptly.

[Stuart F.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Terry;

Good idea. I'll check to make sure it is just a deposit on that kit, and it would be wise to check the system as you say. Sometimes I have a little difficulty communicating with our central Floridians, and it gets more difficult down toward Miami. Actually, their kit looked like new almost as though I was the first grease monkey to touch it, Ha!

Thanks again;

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

A quick WOT max rev burst to high speed should not cause overheating, but it creates a pressure surge in the cooling system that can bust a hose. It happened to me once.

How old are the hoses, especially the heater hoses? My guess is that you have a busted hose or some other leak path, but it may not be evident until pressure from both heat and pump head builds to a high level. Evidence of coolant in the engine room should be a clue. It could even be a freeze plug. Those aluminum expansion tanks can corrode through, too.

Fill it back up with water and test it. Drive it then let it idle with the grille blocked until it boils over while you look for leaks. Once you've found and repaired the problem be sure you've got at least 50 percent Zerex G-05 for adequate corrosion protection.

Duke

[Stuart F.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Duke;

Thanks for your comments. As far as I can tell, all the hoses seem to be intact, and the only sourse of leakage (pucking) was the overflow and around the cap. All hoses were new in 1996 (abou 6k miles ago). Believe me, I looked carefully expecting to see a blown hose for sure, and I checked the freeze plugs as well. The only spray back under the car was right in line with the overflow. But, I will do as you say just to make sure everything external to the engine is sound.

When this happened, my first thought was of your advice to limit my RPM's to 5500 for consideration of the rods. I followed this under acceleration, but forgot about being careful on deceleration. I dumped it from 4th back to 3rd at 110 mph, and then back to 2nd at about 80 mph - all of which are within reasonable limits with the 3.36 final I would think. Perhaps the surge or load is different coming down. You would know about that I'm sure from your racing experience. I've always tended to rely a lot on engine braking to save the drum brakes. The new Matrix Ceramic linings are good, but not quite up to the confidence level of the Sintered Metallics with me.

Thanks for your post.

Stu Fox

[Timothy B.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Stu, FWIW, I found my repro caps tested high at approx 17lbs when they are tested.

The repro cap I had on my 63 tested at 17 lbs., when I checked my 307 13lb cap it blew right at 13 lbs and would not build further. That's when I decided to find a doner cap for the correct gaskets and repair the original and use it..

Duke may be right about another leak in the system. Fill her up with water and see if it goes under pressure and look for leaks. If your engine only has 40000 some odd miles I don't think there is anything wrong. Your probably not driving it hard enough..

[Duke W.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

I don't think you downshifted at two high a speed, but a sudden increase in revs can create a pressure surge in the cooling system and even cavitation.

I've been using the heel-and-toe double clutch downshifting technique since I was a teenager, but on the track I downshift sequentially at lower than max speed for that gear - late enough only to ensure that I am in the proper gear for entry into the turn, I don't really rely on compression braking, and I never ran out of my J-65 brakes when I hot-lapped the SWC decades ago.

At The Streets of Willow Springs there is a tight 90 degree RH turn at the end of the pit straight, which ends in a fairly steep uphill grade that requires going from fourth to second in my MR2. Dropping two gears was so cumbersome in the short time I needed for braking due to both gravity and the brakes that I switched my technique to a direct shift from fourth to second, which worked out well.

Since one rarely needs full power in these cars, deposits can build up and then get blown out when you rev it up. I remember one late night 130 plus MPH run around The Beltway when I was a grad student in Madison. After lifting off I looked into the rear view mirror and saw glowing particles coming off the car and bouncing on the pavement. Needless to say I drove home very gingerly and was paranoid for the next few drives though nothing appeared to be wrong.

I had straight through glass packs on the SWC at the time and my final conclusion was that the aggressive run through the gears just blew out red hot glowing carbon deposits from the cylinders and the manifolds/exhaust system. If I had OE type reverse flow mufflers, they probably would have been trapped in the mufflers or at least cooled to less than incandescent temperatures, but with the straight through glass packs there was nothing to impede them from being expelled from the exhaust system while still red hot!

Duke

[Stuart F.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Tim & Duke;

Thanks for the information and some reminiscing. The story about the sparks brings back a lot of memories. When we put on new mufflers or pipes back in the day, we would take the grease gun and give them a couple shots inside. Then later, when we did a night test run at WOT, we'd get our kicks watching the sparks fly - almost better than a spark plug, at least for awhile. That was usually with steel packs and came about when some guy had a theory that they would last longer if you oiled them up, Ha!

Ironic to this episode I had, when I saw the temp gauge go to 245 degrees I wasn't moved much, leastwise to panic. I've seen that a lot in the old days. I had a 58 fuelie that I overheated twice due to blown hoses, and each time it ran better after. Almost like maybe I increased the clearances a bit more. But, more importantly, I know the temp sensor is in the water manifold right before the thermostat on our old cars. As such, when an event like this occurs, it seems that manifold empties out right away and leaves nothing but super heated steam behind which kind of gives you a false reading of the actual engine temperature. Now, if the sensor was in the block like newer car engines, then I might be more concerned.

Duke, your mention of Madison brings to mind my days and friends in Wisconsin. My buddy, with whom I bought this car in 63, was there in Engineering school say late 60's early 70's - a fellow by the name of Denis H. Landry. In fact, he had the 63 up there for awhile and/or stored in his mom's garage in Jefferson while I was in SEA.

Stu Fox

[Stuart F.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Dave;

Thanks for the idea. I never thought of that and I will check it out. It is strange that there are no other exterior signs of a problem. The engine and under car are as clean as could be. All the hoses appear intact, the water pump, freeze plugs, radiator, everything. It started and sounded normal after as well. I'll have to get my T.S. info out on the clutch. This item too was put on new about 6000 miles ago and has always performed well. Really, the only clue I have is the unusual extended idle time getting into the show when I saw 195 on the temp gauge. I don't like those situations and try my best to avoid them, but I was stuck in line.

Oh well, I'll figure it out, specially with all the guidance I get here on the board. I really appreciate that.

Stu Fox

[Ronald L.]

Re: Return From Vettefest - Fingers Crossed

Stu - you mentioned at the top of this thread blue smoke, did your son indicate any of this was coming out the exhaust? Coolant smoke smells sweet and is pretty white.

Have you checked your oil for presence of coolant or water type droplets?
Water pump, clutch, heads and gaskets all should be on your watch list.