Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

[Terry M.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

Terry,

If you mean the Summer edition (the one just received with the LS6 and L88 cars on the cover) it makes no mention of any change in the rules and in fact Roy's column reiterates at great length the long standing methods and processes that judges are to follow on the judging field.

If this change is not in the JRM, not mentioned in the Restorer and only 'verbal' how can judge or owners be expected to follow the rules ?

Shows you how much I looked at the new Restorer

[Jack H.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

I could be nit pickin' here, Terry. But, my read is leather interior WAS a factory option in 1970 listed as Custom Interior Trim at $158 with 3191 cars produced with the option. You got more than just leather upholstery (cut pile carpet & door panel/center console trim upgrades) and the separate issue is available color.

So if a '70 shows up on the judging field with a trim tag indicating base/std interior and it has 'pieces' of the Custom Interior Trim package, is that a 50% or 100% deduction? Point is there's a potential and in some model years direct conflict in our published rules without clarification as to which interpretation governs.

This obviously isn't a KILLER issue, since we've gotten along with the current system for a LONG time. I see it as a dot the 'i' and cross the 't' clean-up issue.

The impact of trim tag interpretation is more serious. At the Chapter meet level, we're just NOT that good at spotting reproduction trim tags vs. factory original tags. There were no trim tags on C1 cars, so they potentially 'skate' the issue altogether and that's NOT good (discriminate against cars by model year).

Personally, I don't like the idea of 'boxing out' a car. Heck, it wasn't the fault of the CAR that this owner or prior owners played 'games' with it. The concept of allowing it to be judged and assess a STIFF penalty for this/that transgression suites me better...

But, applying a 'no judge' penalty for something that can't be uniformly determined/enforced (Chapter, Regional, National + across all model years) is a nit I can't really pick!

The VIN tag 'no judge' rule is a bit cleaner. There, we accept State issued VIN tags as being equal to the factory original tag. It's usually called at the chapter level when a given car is completely missing its VIN tag or it's not affixed per factory norms. Plus, all Corvettes had VIN tags so our rule making applies across the board. And, there's an easy fix that doesn't permanently penalize the car...

Lost your VIN tag? No problem. Do NOT go get a 'reproduction'. Trot on down to the State and get a State issued tag. Problem solved.

[Gene M.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

Jack, does the state issue a VIN same number that is stamped on the block in the case of a missing VIN plate?
What about the case of resurrecting an old race car without VIN numbers.

Or what if the block VIN is not original to said Corvette but is a correct year and build period from a close build Corvette? What number is used?

I hope this is not clear as mud ........

Terry, can a bad VIN car "acquire or find" it's original tags and be legit in NCRS judging again?

[Terry M.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

Jack, does the state issue a VIN same number that is stamped on the block in the case of a missing VIN plate?
What about the case of resurrecting an old race car without VIN numbers.

Or what if the block VIN is not original to said Corvette but is a correct year and build period from a close build Corvette? What number is used?

I hope this is not clear as mud ........

Terry, can a bad VIN car "acquire or find" it's original tags and be legit in NCRS judging again?

Gene, Some states issue a VIN tag that has the original VIN or part of it, as best can be determined by their inspector, and others issue their own VIN plate and number that even Ray Charles could distinguish from a GM tag. The ones I have seen that have the original VIN sometimes don't have all the VIN, but only the derivative that is stamped on the frame -- so that too would be obvious to most of us.

However I think the intent is to deal with Counterfeit tags, not state issued tags -- but maybe it is best to wait for official word before we try to figure out how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. Those of you with lawyerly bent can get your engines revved up in the mean time.

[Terry M.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

I could be nit pickin' here, Terry. But, my read is leather interior WAS a factory option in 1970 listed as Custom Interior Trim at $158 with 3191 cars produced with the option. You got more than just leather upholstery (cut pile carpet & door panel/center console trim upgrades) and the separate issue is available color.

So if a '70 shows up on the judging field with a trim tag indicating base/std interior and it has 'pieces' of the Custom Interior Trim package, is that a 50% or 100% deduction? Point is there's a potential and in some model years direct conflict in our published rules without clarification as to which interpretation governs.

This obviously isn't a KILLER issue, since we've gotten along with the current system for a LONG time. I see it as a dot the 'i' and cross the 't' clean-up issue.

The impact of trim tag interpretation is more serious. At the Chapter meet level, we're just NOT that good at spotting reproduction trim tags vs. factory original tags. There were no trim tags on C1 cars, so they potentially 'skate' the issue altogether and that's NOT good (discriminate against cars by model year).

Personally, I don't like the idea of 'boxing out' a car. Heck, it wasn't the fault of the CAR that this owner or prior owners played 'games' with it. The concept of allowing it to be judged and assess a STIFF penalty for this/that transgression suites me better...

But, applying a 'no judge' penalty for something that can't be uniformly determined/enforced (Chapter, Regional, National + across all model years) is a nit I can't really pick!

The VIN tag 'no judge' rule is a bit cleaner. There, we accept State issued VIN tags as being equal to the factory original tag. It's usually called at the chapter level when a given car is completely missing its VIN tag or it's not affixed per factory norms. Plus, all Corvettes had VIN tags so our rule making applies across the board. And, there's an easy fix that doesn't permanently penalize the car...

Lost your VIN tag? No problem. Do NOT go get a 'reproduction'. Trot on down to the State and get a State issued tag. Problem solved.

[Jack H.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

Yes, Terry is right! State issued VIN tags are all over the map in terms of configuration, placement and composition. I've seen several at our Rocky Mtn judging meets (Colorado, Nebraska, Etc.) and they bore NO RESEMBLENCE to the GM factory original plates.

One was made from vinyl stock with a tamper-proof front cover and affixed to the car's door jamb. It read along the lines 'NEB-XXXXX' and that agreed with the owner's registration/title. BTW, that's how the resulting Flight Certificate was made out.

On the issue of judging an engine stamp pad with respect to car's having a State-issued VIN tag, that's a more fuzzy subject. I think you'll find most cut the car a LOT of slack here!

Remember, the whole deal about authenticating VIN tags is NOT to assess condition. It's basically a means to thwart stolen/altered vehicles from being 'rubber stamped' as factory legitimate.

In my mind, those who 'save' a Corvette that's been raced/wrecked/scrapped should be applauded NOT scolded! Heck, it wasn't the fault of the CAR that it got to where it was!

Judging rules that render a given Corvette 'unjudgeable' simply aren't fair in my mind... Yes, this one was a BAD Corvette... It doesn't 'deserve' to be maintained/restored. Let's punish that one! CRUSH IT!!!!

Hey, that's NONSENSE... But, there IS merit in trying to forestall those who want to 'restore' a Corvette and alter it along the way to equip it with the options they would have elected IF they were the original buyer! That's not what our club is all about...

Now, we get to the fuzzy area of where we draw the line and what aspect(s) of the car we focus on. VIN/trim tags do NOT define the FULL factory original configuration of all Corvettes ever built. So, it's tough to define a uniform policy here. But, those details are for Roy and the NCRS Board to decide, approve and enumerate.

While I can have personal feelings, the actual mechanics of policy/procedure are above my 'pay grade'...

[Edward M.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

Terry's point does bring up a question.

We have seen cars that had non-standard paint colors identified as "SPEC" on the trim tag (i.e. black 1973 Corvettes).

Have we ever seen cars with non standard interior trim colors / material marked in a similar fashion?

How about a trim tag that have both paint and interior non-standard?

[Gene M.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

Quote: ....... "You, and to some extent Gene, are mixing apples and oranges." .......

I have no confusion on interior/color/material deviations.
I was only interested in what transpires with state issued VIN's and you guys answered it. I had never come across one before. thank you

[Peter G.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

I had this situation come up in judging with my '73. The trim tag was considered to be original and correct for the car. 400 Black vinyl and the previous owner told me on the phone that he liked leather seats better and change the complete interior to leather seats which also meant wood grain trim on door panels, console and cut pile carpet on door panels and flooring. So that would be trim code-404 Black Leather. I had no reason or any evidence of the trim tag being bogus so I changed the complete "excellent condtion" interior BACK to 400 at a hefty cost! The trim tag would have been much cheaper to replace than the seat covers, door panels, console and carpet front and back. I also wanted to avoid this possilbe situation that Terry is speaking of that Roy spoke of.

They (NCRS) judged my interior of the materials to the trim tag and that is also how I would judge it too.

[Robert R.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

Peter,
That's one of those decisions we all must make when dealing with what is important to us and this hobby. My personal preference would have been to keep the interior you had as long as it looked good and did not have any cosmetic needs.
Actually on my '73, my trim tag codes show that it was Orange with Dark Tan Leather (can't think of the codes right now), but when I bought it, the previous owner had it painted a custom Red and changed the interior to Black Leather.
So my plan was to own the '73 I always wanted.
Could not bring myself to painting it nor replacing the interior with that combo (sorry Orange fans) so we left the tag alone and did go with my favorite Corvette color, Medium Blue and kept the interior Black.
My wife, kids and grand kids all agreed as they like the current color scheme over what it should have been. Yes it probably would have been smarter to go with the original colors, but then I'd fall back into the trap of making everything "right" and not enjoying the car. Like what happened to my '67; was afraid to take it anywhere for fear of something happening to it.

[Jack H.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

And you done good/right!!!

Now, let's look at the back of that same coin. The car is MISSING it's trim tag.

If it's missing a VIN tag, no problem. Trot on down to the State and get a State-issued replacement. You're good to go and can safely proceed with the club's stated mission 'restoration/preservation'.

BUT, without a trim tag, hey CRUSH that bad car! There's no recognized 'fix' at NCRS that isn't a Sword of Damocles...a ticking time bomb ready to explode and label you a counterfeiter and 'tag' that bad car for all time.

BTW, GM/Chevy DID replace both VIN and trim tags via the zone dealership network. Those were embossed in Detroit and NOT on the St. Louis machine...

If the original/prior owner did this to a given car and the 'proof' didn't stay with the car over time, the owners of those cars are potentially 'guilty' of the big 'no no' even though the car is 100% legit...

Yep, some will replace a trim tag for the wrong reasons and that's NOT good. But, there are others with perfectly legitimate reasons for wanting a 'restoration' trim tag and they're SOL. Plus, for those with C1 cars, it's simply not an issue.

That's my bugaboo...

[David S.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points




Originality - 24
Condition - 16
Total - 40

Am I correct to assume a 50% deduct of 20 points for the senario I posted?

Thanks,
Dave

[Peter G.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

David..I wish the math was that simple. I have seen it judged differently on my interior when it was leather code #404 when it should have been code # 400. When judging the carpet I got total deduct on orign which made condition total too. Same for seat covers..same for door panels? Then another judge saw that "yes" there was carpeting on the floor....door panels on the inside of the door and made a percentage deduct on orign which would allow condition points?

NCRS Judging strives for "consistency" but it isn't always achieved! I have also experienced this with other areas of my car, but I am having a nice restfull evening watching TV between msg posts...so we won't go there now.

Good luck on your judging.

[William C.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

It varies somewhat with the year of the car being considered. The origin of the decision was back when the 63-67 cars were the newest being judged, about the time the first judging manuals came out, and the carpets were generally not an issue between leather and vinyl interiors, just the seat materials. I believe the wording has carried over since that era, (early 80's) without a lot of focus on the additional "add-ons" in the option as newer cars were introduced to the process.

[Joel F.]

Re: Trim Tag Deviation - Judging Points

Now, let's look at the back of that same coin. The car is MISSING it's trim tag.

If it's missing a VIN tag, no problem. Trot on down to the State and get a State-issued replacement. You're good to go and can safely proceed with the club's stated mission 'restoration/preservation'.

BUT, without a trim tag, hey CRUSH that bad car! There's no recognized 'fix' at NCRS that isn't a Sword of Damocles...a ticking time bomb ready to explode and label you a counterfeiter and 'tag' that bad car for all time.

Yep, some will replace a trim tag for the wrong reasons and that's NOT good. But, there are others with perfectly legitimate reasons for wanting a 'restoration' trim tag and they're SOL. Plus, for those with C1 cars, it's simply not an issue.

That's my bugaboo...

I agree completely with you on this Jack. There has to be a better way to deal with this issue than to immediately DQ them.