New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
I am new to Corvette ownership. I bought a 1963 Corvette convertible. It does not have the original motor or trans, but I would like to make it a numbers match car for motor and trans and carb. How might I do this? What date engine and trans should go in this? It was a manufacture date of A2 or September 1962, being an early built 1963 Corvette.
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
I love this post...
I sorry Shelton that I cannot provide much help, but I'm sure others will jump in here soon. -
Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
Hi Shelton !!!
Welcome to the NCRS. Since you are new, you will find lots of info and good people here. You will also find a thousand opinions on the subject of your post.
Since your car is no longer a number matching car, it truly never will be again......................... Unless
You can track down the original engine. You can attempt this by placing ads in our Driveline or tracking the history of your car. Finding the original engine for an old Corvette is possible, but often requires the same luck as hitting the powerball.
The only other way is to have a restoration motor "created" This would require a correctly dated block and a restamping of original VIN and assembly date on the new motor. This is done often, but is also frowned upon by many and accepted by others, so keep that in mind.
Your best bet is to drive and enjoy your car, even if the numbers don't match. Tinker on the car, learn about it, study it, then move on up to a matching number car in the future.
Whatever you do, good luck and welcome to NCRS. There is no better forum to dicuss Corvettes than here. There is a wealth of experience and willingness to help like no other place on the net.
Stay involved and have fun ! Post up a couple pictures of the new ride !!!Tom Hendricks
Proud Member NCRS #23758
NCM Founding Member # 1143
Corvette Department Manager and
Specialist for 27 years at BUDS Chevrolet.Comment
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
Hi Shelton,
Welcome to the "World of Corvettes" and to the technical discussion board. Your question has the potential for unlimited answers because "number matching" means different things to different people. I'm sure you can find many posts on this forum dealing with this very topic.
In a very strict sense, numbers matching means your Corvette has all of its original parts that were stamped/marked with the car's VIN or VIN derivative. These parts would include the frame, the cylinder case, the transmission case, the body, etc. Parts stamped with the car's VIN derivative, or VIN itself, are specific to that one car. That's my definition of numbers matching. Furthermore, all associated parts with date codes, such as manifolds, radiators, water pumps, glass, carburetors, etc., etc., etc., would generally precede the car's assembly date within a six month period. In a perfect world, that would be your numbers matching Corvette.
In terms of your early 1963 Corvette, original parts manufactured between March, 1962, and the assembly date of your car would work. Your carburetor could be switched for an original with a date code that fits within the parameters I've stated above.
The engine block and transmission are a much different story. Those parts were originally stamped with VIN derivatives. In my narrow definition of numbers matching, only one block and one transmission came with your car. I guess you could possibly find an appropriate block, with the correct casting number, and go through the process of having it re-stamped with your car's VIN derivative and a reasonably expected assembly date code. And I guess you could do the same with a transmission case. In my VERY humble opinion, re-stamping blocks is a questionable practice, and an extremely slippery slope to tread. If it's done for restorative purposes, then some would think that it's a practical, logical, acceptable application. If it's done for purposes of trying to pass a car off as a "numbers matching" original, then that's fraud, and it's wrong.
You could possibly receive MANY different opinions about what "numbers matching" means and how to get your car to that point. Those opinions may not agree with mine. Good luck with your Corvette, and thanks for joining in the discussion.
Jim C.
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
Welcome to NCRS Shelton!
I think you will find this group of people have the deepest knowledge of Corvettes that you will ever find.
I bet you'll find that "numbers matching" in this forum means something different than what you'll hear elsewhere. The matching VIN on the transmission and block is the mostly widely understood outside this forum, but inside here I expect to hear about all the matching part numbers and dates from bumper to bumper.
JeffComment
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
Yes, Welcome to the NCRS Corvette board.
Please enjoy your car as it is. Generally as has been stated on this board it is not well accepted to create a "numbers matching" car. Anything pertaining to the VIN should be the piece the car was built with at GM, and not otherwise.
I suggest if it is your interest to have a "correct" car that you purchase a car as such with it's original parts of VIN derivative. Maybe sell the '63.
Again Welcome, this board shares a wealth of information.Comment
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
Hi Shelton, and welcome to the forum...
Your 1963 is a fun car to own.. the first year of the Sting Ray with many unique and partial year only parts...
The advice which you have been given thus far is spot on... To be truly numbers matching you need original parts... My 1963 was similar to yours in that the original motor was long gone.... I elected to go the "restoration" motor route in that I found a block with a reasonable casting date, had it decked and stamped to my VIN and included a build date which was reasonable given my overall car build date... This is not a cheap process by any means.. To make matters more interesting (and expensive) the '63 used a unique T10 for the early part of the year... these are also difficult to find ...
Bottom line, depending upon what you want to do with the car, and the condition which it is in right now, you might just do as the guys have said... drive it and enjoy it!
Best of luck,
JoelComment
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
There are basically two approaches when it comes to the basic engine block (cylinder case). One is to 'come close' and accept partial credit for the replacement block. You do that by locating a 'donor' block from another passenger car/truck that used the same basic block and using it. If the block casting number is correct, the configuration is correct (ie, it's a Saginaw/Flint vs. Tonawanda casting), and the casting date is a match (cast within a 0-6 month window prior to your car's final assy date), we at NCRS give 50% credit for that part...
The other alternative is to go 'all the way' with a full 'restoration' engine. You do that by locating a correct donor block (above) and then finding a skilled 'stamp' man. That's a fellow who'll work with your machinest to properly remove the information stamped in the existing block's stamp pad, have the deck lid re-broached, and then restamp the pad (using known correct font/characters and their placement) to recreate what could of/should of been on your original motor.
Many are opposed to this process (restamping) as they believe it's a matter of 'fraud'. But, judging rules are to make the car 'appear' correct, as it was originally built, and if you don't change configuration (turn a base engine car into an FI car) and you disclose the process (our judging score sheet packages have a field for Owner's Declaration/Exception), it will 'fly' to the extent of how well your 'stamp man' does in properly recreating the factory original stampings...Comment
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
Shelton,
I'm a little surprised that Joel was the only "moderate" that jumped in. Some of the comments above are from guys that believe that numbers matching means "all original". Go back and search the archives and you'll see that many, many people believe that "numbers matching" means "numbers matching", nothing more, nothing less, and the buyer should beware if they are looking for "all original". Like Jim said, it's fraud to sell a car as "all original" when it's not.
I believe that there's nothing wrong with having a non original numbers matching car as long as it is not represented as "all original". Unfortunately, the NCRS judging process dictates this, unless achieving awards is not your intention.
There's a bunch of good discussion in the archives about how to do what you wish to do. There's also some contacts that can help you.
PaulComment
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
I agree with Paul there is a huge differance between #'s matching and original. And then there is all original and all #'s mathing. I would prefer All original#'s matching but as these cars get older I believe that will be tougher to obtain.Fraud may enter the picture somewhere along the line, and may not even be known by the current seller or owner. As far as restoration goes a nice #'s matching car is nothing to sneeze at. Is it original no! JMHO. Tom Stanton #41491Comment
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
Welcome Shelton,
No doubt you've pick up by now that there is alot of emotionalism wrapped into this topic. Jack Humphrey has filtered out the emotion and provided a very distinct and accurate responce to your question.
Like it or not, the NCRS will recognize a restoration engine if properly done (very hard to accompish). The key element here is "restoration" and not "recreation". If you have some supporing documentation to validate the configuration of your car's original build, then by all means go restore it.
Lacking this documentation, you may just want to follow Tom Hendrick's suggestion to just drive and enjoy the car.
Regardless of the road you choose to follow, enjoy your Corvette and stick around. This is the best organization on the planet earth.
tcLast edited by Tracy C.; June 25, 2010, 10:59 AM.Comment
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
I think the law makes no distinction between "restoration and recreation" when the restamping of VIN #'s is involved. Remember the VIN is intended to represent one and only one serial numbered vehicle. That is the reason for it. Restamping otherwise misrepresents the originality.
It is still illegal even if NCRS accepts the misrepresented VIN stamping as equal to the real deal for points purposes.Comment
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
It's sounds like all the dude wants to do is find a correct date coded engine which is as best a match as possible for his car. You can't fault that. He just wants guidence for what numbers to look for. He never said anything about restamping or faking an engine!
Some people are just way to touchy...
Heck I'm going to soon doing the same thing for my powergilde. I have the original engine but the trans wa swapped and I want to find another with correct casting/date codes for my cars build date. It's not a big deal.
AlexComment
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Re: New Owner Needs Numbers Match Help
Why don't you enjoy it drive it for a couple of years before you decide what you want to do? Get to know the car, what's right and what's wrong.Comment
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