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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
for whats its worth to you all out there, jim just rebuilt my unit and we are very pleased. Great work jim!Comment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
There are two answers for your question, Joel.
One answer is to set the enrichment diaphragm such that the ratio lever begins transitioning from the economy stop at 7" Hg vacuum and reaches the power stop by the time manifold vacuum has dropped to 2" Hg. (These are sea level settings for 7380 FI units.)
The other answer is more pragmatic.
Set the transition threshold such that there is no lean stumble upon a sudden application of wide open throttle and no chuff of black smoke from the tail pipes.
That said, the enrichment diaphragm transition points should NOT be adjusted until and unless the economy and power stop screws have first been properly set.
If you have access to a manometer, use the factory recommended fuel pressure settings to set the economy and power stops. Even better, if you have access to a wide band air/fuel ratio gauge, set the economy stop for an air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1-15:1 and the power stop setting for an air/fuel ratio of 12.5:1.
JimComment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
I second that. I'm building a Road racing Fuelie for my racer and it's anything but stock. With a very serious racing camshaft and a motor that want 700 CFMs many things needed to be modified. Jim has held my hand and walked me through what I consider to be a task that required a broad understanding and expirience with FI design and operation. Jim has been great. Thank you . Jerry
Now on to the chassis dyno.
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
Chris, I do not have power breaks. I thought that all fuelie's had no power driven accessories? if it is leaking vacuum somewhere I sure can't find it.
HankComment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
I find it interesting that after all these years the interest in fuel injections has not dwindled. Has not slowed down.
Friends will stop to visit and say to me. They can't believe that in 2010 guys are still working on antique fuel injections 24/7. You see some wackos like old JD here even dream about them.
Now here is the punch line NCRS members from all over the world. The problem is not who did or who did not rebuild your fuel injection unit. That's not the issue. The issue is who is going to do it tomorrow???
I am only aware of a couple of young men who are interested in the 57 to 65 fuel injections. Interested in rebuilding them. Maybe you know different.
Lately quite a few of the old timers have stopped working on them. It's sad and depressing. My mentors are slowly going away. When was the last time your heard from Brian Futo??? He is one of the greatest on Fi's that every lived. When NCRS was formed Brian started with our club. Look in the "Restorer" on page two. Most of you don't even know him I bet.
Instead of rediculing new kids on the block(not saying you are doing that here) how about encouraging them. Helping them at all cost as before you know it the old guys like me, etc will be history and you will be stuck there with a fuel car with very few people interested in working on them.
Jerry Bramlett and JD here are very close friends. We talk about this situation often.
Some of the old timers don't want to help the young guys for some reason. I do. Jerry does.
Sorry to dump but this subject has been on my mine for a long time.
I enjoyed reading all the posts on fuel injection. I didn't interject as it wasn't necessary. You are doing quite well on your own. JDComment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
John;
I plan to come back as a fuelie expert like you in my next life. I got scared off them back in 1958 with my first one. After not being able to get started at -2* one winter, I kinda soured on them. Had the 58 290hp in my 50 Chevy coupe parked in a lot at work. It would turn over fine, but just not fire. My Dad pushed me with his 55 Chevy 6 cyl and jumped my bumper (no bumper guards for me) and damaged the area below the trunk lid where I had the "Fuel Injection" script lettering wrecking it. I did have fun whistling around town with my 57 open element air filter though. I could go through a whole tank of gas in one evening running around town doing donuts in the snow. At full throttle, they do use lots of gas.
When I bought my 63 Vette and passed on the fuelie, I calculated how many other options I was able to get for the $382. bucks and change.
That thought has stayed with me for 47 years.
Stu FoxComment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
I have to agree with JD's comments on future FI gurus (or the lack of them). I don't rebuild nearly as many FIs as JD or Jerry, and I don't advertise either. At 67yrs, I still have a full time day job (hope to retire next year), thus with a regular job and evening/weekend projects stacked up, I have plenty to do without advertising.
But, back to JD's comments. When I get stumped or need info about an FI unit, there are no youngins' to go to. Only the FI old timers are credible sources for assistance. Also, it is not uncommon to come across a problem that was never covered by any FI manual or Rochester publication. Additionally, many FI units were modified to a lesser or greater extent for added performance by "old time" FI gurus (such as Norm Berger, Bill Thomas, etc) who are no longer around. Consequently, we don't have their base of experience to draw from. Some minor mods, such as replacing the Cranking Signal Valve with an elec solenoid or adding a solenoid under the plenum to prevent fuel siphoning into a cylinder (and subsequently bending a rod) are somewhat minor mods to improve dependability. Then there are the more radical mods, such as cutting an early plenum in half and hogging it out (such as the one on my 56)
or completely cutting away the left side of a plenum, welding in a plate with 2 openings for dual air meters and modifying the fuel meter for improved fuel flow (such as the unit on Rich Mason's SR2).
I clearly remember the days when NCRS had ZERO interest (if it wasn't PURE factory correct, it was puke) in the vintage/modified Vettes and as a result, little to none of this kind of information was absorbed by NCRS. Now, NCRS has somewhat changed their tune, but only after a lot of valuable information and knowledge has gone by the wayside (ya, I had to get in another dig at NCRS------one of my favorite pastimes
).
Last edited by Tom P.; June 3, 2010, 08:58 AM.Comment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
Tom,
Great pictures and info.
Bruce BComment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
There are those of us that are not "of a certain age" that are interested in fuelies. I've had my '65 for about 15 years. It took me about three years, and a total rebuild (of the f.i. unit AND the ignition system) until it really ran well. I thank John D. as well as Rick B. from the Michigan Chapter for all the help and education.Comment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
And I would respond to that by saying that MOST halfway mechanically inclined do it yourselfers CAN remove, disassemble, clean and reassemble an FI unit and/or distributor-----------------so long as it is complete and all service procedures are covered by the GM/Rochester/Delco manuals. But, after all the years that have gone by, and MANY units have been bubbed up by so called "expert" gurus (translate idiots), it no longer is a matter of just doing a "by the book" rebuild. In several conversaitons/emails/photo exchanges with FI knowledgeable/experienced people (who are today's REAL FI gurus, ie John D, Jerry B, etc) it has become quite clear that much of what we have to work with is--------------------how do you say this politely-------------JUNK! NON-knowledgeable owners of FI units (that are often bubbed or are missing key components) will frequently expect those of us who do rebuilds, to take in a partial/bubbed unit and turn it into a virtual NOS unit for the price of a simple rebuild!!!!!!!!!! I cannot count the number of times that John D. and I have exhanged frustrations about the crap that people expected us to rebuild. This is where a full working knowledge of 4360 through 7380 units is mandatory, plus, the various idiosyncracies of each unit. And if a unit has been modified, or just as important, a unit from one particular engine has been installed a different engine (cam, displacement, etc) from which it was originally built/calibrated by Rochester, then all the rules (of FI calibration) change.
My point, teardown, cleaning, rebuilding and re-installing an FI unit on an original configuration engine is pretty simple. But not so, when changes, modifications, missing components and/or installation on a different engine is the case.
After 35+yrs of dealing with Rochester FI units, I'm STILL behind the power curve and I ocassionally must seek information/advice from other FI folks.Comment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
Thanks for jumping in John and yes I totally agree. I used to catch Brian at the Meet in Oregon at the "Inn of The Seventh Mountain". He was a wealth of knowledge.
Have you guys ever done a complete FI clinic to teach some of the young guys how to diagnose and tune? How about another article in the Restorer Magazine?Comment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
After getting my unit back and on the car i have instantly become hooked! I am 35 and would love to know these inside and out. unfortunatly living in the middle of nowhere i can't train with the "old timers". Tuff one to solve; the passing of the knowledge.Comment
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Re: Got Fuelie problems?
I'm glad to see Brian Futo get a little air time. I was priveledged to have Brian mentor me on my 63 FI unit. Many times I limped it up to Boulder and he would have a space open in his garage and the unit would come off and go down one level to his work shop to be torn down to the last bolt and nut. He was a genius with the FI. I helped him resolder my spider lines after Bubba had torqued them down too hard and the farrels cut them off. I held the spider while he opened up the center to clean debrie out of the check valve and resoldered that up. Everything that he did, he told me the engineering design and reason. I learned a whole lot from him over the years and I am very thankful to him for his time and effort and patience with me. When he moved to Arizona I missed him very much. He sold me the parts needed for a very reasonal amount and I doubt that I paid any for all of his labor,training, and mentoring. I always tried to and he said , you are the only one I know that is daily driving one on the street and highways. I experience very little trouble with my FI and I can't help but think that it runs so well because of Brian's blessing. I am now always open to share what he taught me. I am driving my 63 FI almost daily again after 21 years and it is sure joy.It's a good life!
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