Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

[Kirk M.]

Is it possible to have a C 9 7 and C 10 7 head on an engine that was assembled March 10, 1967? Obviously, the one I am worried about is the perfect match between assembly date and the C 10 7 head. Thanks.

Kirk

[Jack H.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

Yes and an even better chance if we're talking BB vs. SB. What you'd have is the foundry feeding the engine assy line with freshly received castings going directly to the line. At Tonawanda (BB engines only for Corvette), the complex provided its own foundry as well as assy facilities.

For SB engine, the foundry was in Saginaw with the engine assy plant in Flint (about 40 miles away). But, company trucks ran pretty much non-stop between the two facilities and they often ran 3-shifts per day. So, it wasn't 'impossible' a part to be cast and then meet up with its final assy within the same 24-hour period.

Last, when have you heard of judges asking owners to remove the valve covers on their engines so they could date code justify an engine?

[Kirk M.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

I know they don't ask us to remove valve covers, but if I am going to pay good money for restored head, I want to make sure it is absolutely NCRS correct to the letter. I had asked for a March 3rd, 67 head, but they clearly switched it to a March 10th head. As long as it is NCRS correct, I will keep it, but if there is any doubt, I would rather get an earlier head.


Kirk

[Rick S.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

Kirk,
Here are the date codes for my 67 L-79 engine. Engine casting code is E317 which is May 31st. The heads are C17 (March 1st) and C147 (March14th). I thought I would provide this information in case you wanted to go for earlier heads.
Rick

[Joel F.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

Jack,

Not trying to be argumentative but I think in this case dates are too close together. In the case of a head, I do not think it would be possible to cast the head, machine it, press guides, ream them, assemble them with valves, springs, etc, and then get them over to be installed on a short block all in the same day. Especially for SBs but even for BB I am doubtful.

Anyone know for sure?

[Jack H.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

Well, what's typical and what's possible ARE two different things... Our judging policy on date coding provides for an interval of 0-6 months prior and the the zero is there for a reason. 'Crazy' things DID happen.

Once in a blue moon, employees from say, Delco in Anderson, Indiana traveled to St. Louis for routine meetings and hand carried parts fresh off the line. Even with 'standard' inter-company transportation, things could click 'just right'. Search the archives and I'll think you'll find commentary to this effect from folks like John Hinckley...

In my career, I do remember hand carrying 'hot' parts from our mfgr site in Houston, TX to our final assy plants in Austin, TX and Temple, TX. But, that was the electronics biz (Texas Instruments)...

I was present when Chevy rolled out the first Dealer Terminal (electronic data terminal) at Penske Chevrolet in Southfield, MI. Amid the hoopla of press/media coverage of the event (Penske himself was on hand), another 'impossible' sequence was conspiring behind the scenes...

The first car ordered electronically, direct from dealership, was a Chevy Nova. The order just happened to hit all the 'traps' in correct sequence.

The order was transmitted to Chevy in the morning. It rolled through the marketing validation sequence without a hitch (intelligent data terminal had made sure there were no source data entry errors) and into the production data base late that afternoon.

By random luck, the order was pulled for build at the nearby Willow Run plant on third shift of the same day--just happened to have the option/configuration profile that Willow Run plant wanted for build scheduling. The order completed its build and went out for delivery the next morning!

Chevy's marketing folks were ASTOUNDED as word of this 'impossible' event began to circulate through the dealership community! They knew this was a once in a 'blue moon' happenstance...one that simply couldn't be guaranteed for other dealers opting in to the new Dealer Terminal program...

[Steven B.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

Well, what's typical and what's possible ARE two different things... Our judging policy on date coding provides for an interval of 0-6 months prior and the the zero is there for a reason. 'Crazy' things DID happen.

Once in a blue moon, employees from say, Delco in Anderson, Indiana traveled to St. Louis for routine meetings and hand carried parts fresh off the line. Even with 'standard' inter-company transportation, things could click 'just right'. Search the archives and I'll think you'll find commentary to this effect from folks like John Hinckley...

In my career, I do remember hand carrying 'hot' parts from our mfgr site in Houston, TX to our final assy plants in Austin, TX and Temple, TX. But, that was the electronics biz (Texas Instruments)...

I was present when Chevy rolled out the first Dealer Terminal (electronic data terminal) at Penske Chevrolet in Southfield, MI. Amid the hoopla of press/media coverage of the event (Penske himself was on hand), another 'impossible' sequence was conspiring behind the scenes...

The first car ordered electronically, direct from dealership, was a Chevy Nova. The order just happened to hit all the 'traps' in correct sequence.

The order was transmitted to Chevy in the morning. It rolled through the marketing validation sequence without a hitch (intelligent data terminal had made sure there were no source data entry errors) and into the production data base late that afternoon.

By random luck, the order was pulled for build at the nearby Willow Run plant on third shift of the same day--just happened to have the option/configuration profile that Willow Run plant wanted for build scheduling. The order completed its build and went out for delivery the next morning!

Chevy's marketing folks were ASTOUNDED as word of this 'impossible' event began to circulate through the dealership community! They knew this was a once in a 'blue moon' happenstance...one that simply couldn't be guaranteed for other dealers opting in to the new Dealer Terminal program...

Jack, what year was that?

Thanks!

Steve

[Jack H.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

I'll make the assumption that 'that' refers to the Chevy Dealer Terminal debut. Let's see, Ford went first in implementing intelligent data terminals at dealership, followed by International Harvester. These were used for GL accounting and parts order/inventory control.

Then, Chevy joined the forray by walking a different path--not offering accounting services/parts inventory control, but providing dealer direct new car order entry. Our strategic partner was the Reynolds & Reynolds company to supply the terminals, their programming, and dealer training.

I'll make an educated guess amidst the cobwebs in my brain that it would have been in the 1978-79 timeframe. The kickoff was a hoopla event with the first 'live' dealer use at Penske Chevrolet in Detroit/Southfield. Was that 10 Mile Road and Telegraph?

[Kirk M.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

So, the best answer is that it would be possible but likely not probable. Everyone agree. Just don't know if I should try for a slightly earlier head replacement when it comes to the March 10th head.

Having said that, the March 10th head would certainly fit with the overall numbering of the car:

Engine Casting Date - March 8, 1967
Pass Cylinder Head - March 9, 1967
Driver Cylinder Head - March 10, 1967
Engine Assembly - March 10, 1967
Car Build - April 18, 1967

Just want to do this once and get it right.


Kirk

[Jack H.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

Yes, that's what I said 'possible' but not probable... I was answering the original post, as written...is it possible?

The possibility increases if the engine is a Tonawanda build. But, for a Saginaw/Flint built engine you really need to start looking at individual casting clocks in addition to the raw cast numbers and cast dates!

[Kirk M.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

Yes, that's what I said 'possible' but not probable... I was answering the original post, as written...is it possible?

The possibility increases if the engine is a Tonawanda build. But, for a Saginaw/Flint built engine you really need to start looking at individual casting clocks in addition to the raw cast numbers and cast dates!

It is a SB Flint 327/300. What will the clocks tell me. Also, how do you read them. Are the double dots at 12:00 as you face the clock?

Kirk

[John H.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

It is a SB Flint 327/300. What will the clocks tell me. Also, how do you read them. Are the double dots at 12:00 as you face the clock?

Kirk

Kirk -

The clocks will tell you during what hour of which shift the castings were poured. The double dots are at the first hour of the shift. If the center screw head is flat, that's day shift - if it's a round head, it's second shift.

It's entirely possible (although not the "norm") for a casting to be poured early on the first shift at Saginaw and end up as a machined assembly on the second shift at Flint V-8. This has been documented many times. Parts moved right along at 300 engines per hour.

[John S.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

Kirk,
Numbers from my 67 300hp car. Block- Dec 12th cast date and Dec 16th build date. Both heads have a cast date of Dec 15 (one day before assy). From talking with previous owner (2 before me) who bought the car as a 28,000 mile survivor in the late 80's, I believe them to be original to the car. Can I be 100% sure, no. Only original one owner cars can be. Am I reasonably sure, yes. Car now has 35,600 miles (I purchased in Dec. 08 with 33,000). To my knowledge, heads have never been off the car and she runs excellent. Hope these numbers help.
John

[Ronald L.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

Both '66 427 motors I have had in an untouched state have had heads no more than 2 days ahead of the motor, the April I have now, has 19, 19 & 20 on the motor. And if it were Pontiac's, I can say I saw this with my own eyes. Foundry & casting at one end, next machining, then asy.

[Kirk M.]

Re: Engine Assembly Date vs Head Date

Kirk -

The clocks will tell you during what hour of which shift the castings were poured. The double dots are at the first hour of the shift. If the center screw head is flat, that's day shift - if it's a round head, it's second shift.

It's entirely possible (although not the "norm") for a casting to be poured early on the first shift at Saginaw and end up as a machined assembly on the second shift at Flint V-8. This has been documented many times. Parts moved right along at 300 engines per hour.

Thanks John. I was hoping you would chime in at some point.

Here are some pics of the time clocks:

The PS March 9th head appears to be day shift just before the 7th dot, so later day shift. First picture.

The DS (if I keep it) March 10th head appears to be day shift as well at about the second dot, so early day shift. Second picture.

Hence, I suppose it is possible that the March 10th head could have made it over to my car by the end of the day.

So, do I keep it or ship it back and try for an earlier date?

Kirk