CE block price de-valuation

[Joseph S.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

I guess I just don't understand people in this hobby passing by good solid cars with excellent paperwork just because the one item that was Prone to destruct is not there. To me THE most important item is how good the car is, Then the documentation, then matching numbers.

Is a reconstructed wreck with it's original engine block worth more than an excellent original car with a CE block. Not in my mind.

Have a nice weekend!!!

[Joe L.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

I guess I just don't understand people in this hobby passing by good solid cars with excellent paperwork just because the one item that was Prone to destruct is not there. To me THE most important item is how good the car is, Then the documentation, then matching numbers.

Is a reconstructed wreck with it's original engine block worth more than an excellent original car with a CE block. Not in my mind.

Have a nice weekend!!!

Joe-----


To me, the most important things are a solid, preferably no-hit body, a solid, UN-REPAIRED frame and, most important of all, a solid, corrosion free birdcage. Everything else is secondary.

By the same token, if a car lacks any of the above, even if it has absolutely matching numbers for every component, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

To each his own, but to me an original engine is THE most important thing I look for in a Vette, whereas a replacement transmission, frame, etc. wouldn't bother me much.

WTF Please tell me how you can tell a (QUOTE ORIGINAL MOTOR) from a good restoration one. So I could sell you a 67 435 with a origional motor that was in a home made small block & you would buy it?
KEN

[Pat M.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

WTF Please tell me how you can tell a (QUOTE ORIGINAL MOTOR) from a good restoration one. So I could sell you a 67 435 with a origional motor that was in a home made small block & you would buy it? KEN

Yeah Ken, that's what I meant. How do you "tell" an original motor? How do judges "tell" one? Can they spot a "restoration" engine? Ever heard of VINs, stamp pads, casting dates, casting numbers? Apparently I need to spell this out for you?

And obviously, I didn't mean an engine in a vacuum, but an engine original TO AND PART OF A PARTICULAR AND APPROPRIATE CAR, and one that's not a basket case.

Jeeze, no need to go postal on me.

Is a reconstructed wreck with it's original engine block worth more than an excellent original car with a CE block. Not in my mind.

I agree. My point is I'd take a nice car with some replacement parts and an original engine over an EQUALLY NICE car with all original parts but a NOM motor. Again, just my opinion.

[Jim T.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

Mayby one day I will find out, mayby not if I die first how my NOM Corvette will not sell for the money an original motor Corvette like my 1970 will sell for. My original owner 1970's original engine pad was stamped with V0702CTG. The orignal engine did not last 15 miles from the dearlership when I drove away on my first 20 minutes of driving from the dealership . No oil pressure. This occured on August 18,1970 so I have had an NOM engine block in my 1970 Corvette for a very long time.
The replacement block is stamped CEOA 47438. Casting # 3970010 just like the original block. The casting date is D260, so it meets the time frame for NCRS judging. The original cylinder heads and intake are original. Starter, distributor, and Qjet are original.
I should only get point deduction with my NOM would only be with what is stamped on the front pad.
I still have not painted the CEOA 47438 engine block, I never tasked the dealership later to paint it. What I should of done was get my check back that I wrote to pay for the car and bought another one, the dealerships in Dallas had them in August 1970. Youth and lack of knowledge.

[Mark S.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

This is an issue that always confuses me. I understand and agree with the value placed on original engine cars. However, what is described in this thread appears to be a documented L89 with a replacement block. If it is a warranty replacement, it may have all the other original parts and be just like the original engine except for the numbers on the pad. Yet, some people seem to imply that it is worth no more than any other NOM engine.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

Yeah Ken, that's what I meant. How do you "tell" an original motor? How do judges "tell" one? Can they spot a "restoration" engine? Ever heard of VINs, stamp pads, casting dates, casting numbers? Apparently I need to spell this out for you?

And obviously, I didn't mean an engine in a vacuum, but an engine original TO AND PART OF A PARTICULAR AND APPROPRIATE CAR, and one that's not a basket case.

Jeeze, no need to go postal on me.



I agree. My point is I'd take a nice car with some replacement parts and an original engine over an EQUALLY NICE car with all original parts but a NOM motor. Again, just my opinion.

NCRS & BG do NOT judge originally because there is no sure way to the difference if all the #'S, pad & stamping are factory correct. Please look it up in the judges guide. I would say the that close to a third of the small blocks & 2/3 of the high HP engines that are NCRS TF & BG gold Corvettes have resto. engines. 30 years ago 2/3 of the Corvettes I bought did not have the original engine.
KEN

[Harry S.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

Ken, I just assume that 80% of the SHP have been replaced and 80% of the base engine blocks survived.

[Michael W.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

TYet, some people seem to imply that it is worth no more than any other NOM engine.

Here's a possible scenario as to 'why'. Lets say NCRS changes it's policy towards CE engines giving them three quarter credit. Casting dates/numbers up to five years after car build date are now OK to align with the 5 year/50K mile GM warranty. The average buyer puts great credibility in NCRS Flight Certificate and if the NCRS says no deduct, it's 'real'. The market value of CE cars increases as a result.

My crystal ball can see great line ups at the scrap yards looking to pull real CE blocks out of every dump truck, family sedan and station wagon built five years or less after the Corvette.

My other ball sees the restampers tooling up to make good looking CE pads out of engines that by virtue of casting number or date would not have previously gotten any credit under the 'old' NCRS rules.

Al Grenning would have to clone himself several times over trying to keep up with the sudden flood of supposed real CE pads.

If there was a consistant, positive way to link a CE engine to a given car things would be different.

[Harry S.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

I know that most folks don't like this, but for about $2000.00 or less you can locate an original block and have clean broach marks added as well as a new stamp.

Is this restoring or is it a fraud? That's the dilemma we face.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

Ken, I just assume that 80% of the SHP have been replaced and 80% of the base engine blocks survived.

From my experience I think that a lot of the engines were swapped out because it was cheaper to do that than rebuild. In the day no one cared about matching #'S. after 80,000/100,000 mi. the engines were warn out. The rest were beat to hell drag racing. 1969/1970 GM engines used a nylon toothed timing gear & the teeth would break off & all hell would break loose. My brothers 70 Judge let go at 80 miles a hour.
KEN

[Paul J.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

Joe-----


To me, the most important things are a solid, preferably no-hit body, a solid, UN-REPAIRED frame and, most important of all, a solid, corrosion free birdcage. Everything else is secondary.

By the same token, if a car lacks any of the above, even if it has absolutely matching numbers for every component, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Depends on the price, Joe. I take in complete derilicts for restoration. It all depends on the price.

Jim Perkins once reminded me that the reason for the restoration is not only for your enjoyment, it is to preserve the history and make sure that future generations can enjoy the car (although he did'nt care about the restoration costs). I know that many others don't believe in this, but I do.

Paul

[Michael W.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

Is this restoring or is it a fraud? That's the dilemma we face.

It's fraud if a claim is made that it's 'original'. No different than paint, interior, any other component.

BTW Harry- looking forward to seeing you in Kissimmee.

[Pat M.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

NCRS & BG do NOT judge originally because there is no sure way to the difference if all the #'S, pad & stamping are factory correct. Please look it up in the judges guide. I would say the that close to a third of the small blocks & 2/3 of the high HP engines that are NCRS TF & BG gold Corvettes have resto. engines. 30 years ago 2/3 of the Corvettes I bought did not have the original engine.KEN

I wasn't talking about NCRS and/or BG determining an engine's originality, so I don't need to look it up.

You asked me how one could tell if an engine was original. The answer is an experienced person, like a judge, could use various clues like stamp pads, broach marks, casting dates, clues from the car, etc. to make as good of a determination as is humanly possible whether an engine is original. Unless you're the one and only owner of a car, that's about as good as you can do.

Once that is done, my personal preference would be to have a car with such an engine rather than a car that is KNOWN to have a NOM, as was stated in the beginning of this thread. I don't know why this struck you as such a controversial position, as evidenced by your "WTF" reply.

[Michael H.]

Re: CE block price de-valuation

I think a lot of folks are confused about what the CE was. Many automatically think it means a block assy was replaced under warranty because it was stamped CE and that somehow has some meaning as far as originality.
It doesn't.

ALL service fitted/partial blocks had the CE stamp starting some time around late 1968 or 69. The stamp had absolutely nothing to do with the warranty on the vehicle and it does not mean it should have anything to do with originality.

Even if a car is only two months old with a CE block, that does not automatically mean the block was replaced under warranty. Many new hi/perf cars lost their warranty immediately because the owner raced or abused the car. I personaly rejected several warranty claims on new Hi Perf cars in the late 60's/early 70's for this reason. (had no choice in the matter)

Many folks thought there was some difference between an over the counter short block and one used for warranty service in the dealer. Not true.

I don't think a CE block should be judged any differently than a block without CE, warranty or not.