Batteries and Antifreeze

[Stuart F.]

Been awhile since I've had to deal with either item in my title, but I'm about to replace my "Restoration Battery" and, while in the process, I intend to do some cooling system maintenance. I'm proceeding under the following recollections from my old memory;

1) To replace the battery, I need to break loose my heater hoses and unstrap my coolant tank to move both out of the way. Prior to this, of course, I need to drain the cooling system.

A) As I recall, the drain petcock on my 63 radiator is aluminum and is fragile. Opening it is done by turning the handle in a CW direction (instead of the more common brass pieces which require CCW). I checked this by looking at an old one that I had to replace due to the handle had broken loose. I believe this a common problem as most often we try to open these by turning in the wrong direction and maybe use a plyers in the process. My plan is to go right for the hex on the fitting and remove the entire petcock w/o opening the valve. Does that sound right?

B) Second part of my cooling system plan (after I replace the battery) is to flush the cooling system. According to my notes from a number of years ago, I have Prestone Antifreeze in the system and expect to replace it with the same brand doing my own 50/50 mix. I read on their label that it is Silicate, Phosphate and Borate free. They also recommend doing a flush using any good brand flush with a charge of water, running the engine until hot with heater on full, then draining and refilling with the new Antifreeze. I will also be replacing the thermostat.

My concerns are; in 1975 I lost a radiator when I attempted to use Zerex instead of Prestone and apparently got a chemical reaction which caused a lot of pin hole leaks to open. Now, I realize that the product formulas have changed a lot since then, but I'm still gun shy - in this case to use a flush (not a different brand). Also, I'm tempted to replace my 160* thermostat with a 180* ONLY because I now have the engine running exceptionally well (no stumbles or hesitations) and believe I can run it a little hotter now (never could in the past). We do live in Florida so I don't need it for heater operation (even though it was 46* this morning), rather I'd like to make some allowance for better efficiency and engine life as many on the TDB have advised.

2) The Restoration Battery I am removing has died, or so it seems. It will not take a charge and just boils the water out when a charger is connected. It lasted about 7 years and gave good service so long as it was kept filled with distilled water (we had an evaporation problem here). I just became tired of dealing with a wet battery just to be like original. As a result, I may now have to change out the battery tray and hold down again (2nd time in 46 years).

My question is whether or not it may be possible for the battery to be recovered. Other than a simple Multi-meter, I don't have a way to test it for a bad or shorted cell, other than taking it to the auto parts store. I'm probably being foolish, but that baby cost me near three big ones even 7 years ago, and it was dated!

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Im in no hurry to get this done except we are now having ideal project working weather (mid 60's day).

You all have a very Merry Christmas and a Properious New Year. Hope to see you at the winter meet next month.

Stu Fox

[Bruce B.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

Stu,
Concerning your battery.
A few years ago I bought a "Battery Minder". We had a SACC meeting back then an an electrical person described his good experience using the Battery Minder . The manufacturer claims it will "de-sulfate " a battery.
I have an old Delco in my 62 and it died. So I put the Bat Mind. on it and it has been fine for a few years since then and it always starts the 62 with no problems.
You attach it to your battery and forget about it for 3 or 4 months.
I change it from car to car to hopefully add life to the battery in my 3 cars.
Bruce B

[Michael J.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

The procedure I have used is the following, from the archives:
"Unbolt the expansion tank you do not have to remove any of the lines and should not lose any coolant. Zip tie it out of the way toward the motor. Remove both terminal connections. Remove the battery hold down, the oil filler neck is handy to tie it to. If you think that it will leak place a plastic trash bag over the battery (personally I think that this makes it harder to handle). Put a couple of towels on the fender to protect the paint (just in case). Rotate the battery towards you so that the (-) is towards the ground. The battery will almost stand on end in the battery tray. I then place my right hand on the right top/rear corner of the battery and my left hand on the top left corner and lift straight up. I have set it on the fender just to change hand positions but I usually try not to.. That should get it done... Be careful of putting to much strain on the heater core connections or two expansion tank nipples, they tend to become brittle with age."
I have some tie-downs on the hose from the radiator that fasten it to the inner fender and had to remove those.

As for anti-freeze, I recently changed mine out on my '67 after cleaning and rodding the radiator and used the Prestone DEX-COOL GM branded version.

[Duke W.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

There is some concern that Dexcool does not provide adequate protection to solder. Modern cars don't have any solder in the cooling system components. Vintage Corvettes with heaters have conventional soldered brass heater cores.

According for various articles I have read in trade publications, Zerex G-05 is considered by most in the industry to be the best replacement for traditional "green". G-05 is a HOAT the formulation used by Daimler Benz for the last 25 years, and in the last five years Chrysler (when they were part of DB) and Ford adopted it as OE.

As is the case with motor oil, brand name means NOTHING! Most brands offer several formulations whose primary difference is the corrosion inhibitor package. Look at the Valvoline (which now owns the Zerex brand) web site. They offer about six formulations to cover OE requirements.

Whatever happened 25 years ago is irrelevent. The modern formulations are completely different.

If the heater hoses have been on a long time, it's best to slice them at the heater core nipple. Otherwise there is a risk of cracking the nipple joint and causing a leak.

You can prevent hoses from seizing by placing a VERY THIN film of silicone grease on the inside of the hose.

Duke

[Jack H.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

(1) On draining system coolant, my advice is NOT to use the radiator's pet cock. Two bad things can happen: (A) it'll be 'stuck' and you'll fatigue fracture the pet cock actuator handle trying to open the valve, or (B) once it's open and coolant is draining, you'll get 'crude' into the threads and the valve won't close fully/properly.

Shop mechanics here don't take those risks and drain radiators by loosening/removing the lower rad hose...

(2) On the battery, once a tar top has served it's useful life, you're pushing on a rope to try various additives to effect recovery. In the good ole days, locals used to make a living by 'rebuilding' these batteries.

That consists of melting off the tar and lifting the plate assy out of the battery case. Then, either replacing the plate assy or doing as-required re-work to replace individual plates and clean up the rest.

Remember, the 'nostalgia' value of your restoration battery lies in the case and other externally visible cosmetics. I'll bet if you do due diligence in your neck of the woods, you'll find a good ole boy (WW2 era) who knows how to overhaul the battery and install fresh 'guts' that won't be externally visible...

[Stuart F.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

Bruce and Michael;

Thanks for the tips and reminders. I have had a Battery Minder on my battery for the 7 or so years it's been in the car; however, the car was over at my son's house for the last few months. He had sold his 78 P.C. and wanted something to drive for fun until he found another toy. I had not driven it for awhile due to health concerns (going through Lipitor withdrawal and having bad cramps). He recently picked up a beautiful 96 G.S. and had to park it in my garage because the 63 was dead in his. We did a jump this past week and switched them around.

But you bring up the point I had in mind as to whether it may recover with the Battery Minder back on it. I'll at least give it a try. I had it hooked up to an older Optima Battery that I salvaged from one of my son's cars, and it seemed to bring it back up - at least to the point that I will keep it around as a spare.

Michael; I had always disconnected my heater hoses in the past and my son laughed at me for planning to do it again this time. I hope you are right because I am reluctant to disconnet them in the first place. I put in a new core back in 2002 and had the battery out then to do it. When I put the hoses back on, I used the new (std) spring clamps and I have no faith in their ability to make a good leak free connection. As such, I used some gasket sealer on the nipples and screw clamps, which I removed after a few heat up cycles and then moved the spring clamps forward into position on the hoses. If I break those connections now, I may have to cut the hoses back an inch or so to do it. I'll give your instructions a try and will also do as my son suggested, and that is wait for him to lift the battery out for me. I thought I might clean and dry the caps and battery top and try to use a strip of duct tape over them for a short time seal of the water. My son bought the new battery for me which looks exactly like the original, but is dry/sealed. Guess he got it from C.C. and had to wait to have it date stamped. I'm half expecting him to tell me this week that it represents my Christmas present this year, Ha!

Thanks again guys.

Stu Fox

[Stuart F.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

Thanks Duke and Jack for some great advice. I'll look into the coolant suggestions as well. As I recall, I replaced the radiator in 1975 so it is 34 years and counting on it (the first one only went 12 years). I am not experiencing any cooling problems and have been watching for the telltale signs. I was told by the De Witt folks that it comes on slowly as the crud builds up from the bottom over time.

The battery my son got is a "GM Delco Maintenance Free", Model DC12RV w/caps. From what I recently read about Delco batteries in some threads, I probably want to either rehab my old one or qualify the Optima as a standby replacement. All I know is that when we jump started the 63 this past week, neither my son's 4runner or my Impala could give it enough juice to start. We then just connected the new Delco from the floor and it started right off like it was a 24 volt boost. So at least we know it is ok now.

Stu Fox

[Tom S.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

Stu
My advice is to train that boy of yours to do it.That way 7 years from now if you don't want to do it or can't do it god forbid he will be able to. He is a very nice young man and I am sure more than willing to help.If that doesn't work or he is to busy due to the holidays I will come up and give you a hand. Anyway Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Tom

[Michael J.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

There is some concern that Dexcool does not provide adequate protection to solder. Modern cars don't have any solder in the cooling system components. Vintage Corvettes with heaters have conventional soldered brass heater cores.

According for various articles I have read in trade publications, Zerex G-05 is considered by most in the industry to be the best replacement for traditional "green". G-05 is a HOAT the formulation used by Daimler Benz for the last 25 years, and in the last five years Chrysler (when they were part of DB) and Ford adopted it as OE.

As is the case with motor oil, brand name means NOTHING! Most brands offer several formulations whose primary difference is the corrosion inhibitor package. Look at the Valvoline (which now owns the Zerex brand) web site. They offer about six formulations to cover OE requirements.

Whatever happened 25 years ago is irrelevent. The modern formulations are completely different.

If the heater hoses have been on a long time, it's best to slice them at the heater core nipple. Otherwise there is a risk of cracking the nipple joint and causing a leak.

You can prevent hoses from seizing by placing a VERY THIN film of silicone grease on the inside of the hose.

Duke

I tried to find the Zerex G-05 you mentioned before but no auto parts or supply house in New Mexico has it and many (NAPA, O'Reilly) said they had never heard of it. I looked it up on the internet and could order it, but decided to try the DEXCOOL, as several guys at the parts stores said it would work fine. Hope it does, I would hate to have to replace a leaking heater core.

[Stuart F.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

Michael;

I've gone as far as undoing the expansion tank and hose from the radiator, but I stopped to think about it a little longer. First, I have a 63 dated tank with the rolled in nipples (connections) which are even more fragile than the welded ones of later years. Also, there was a lot of hidden corrosion from the battery built up on the bottom of the tank and lower elbow which I believe will cause me to at least take the tank out to clean it up. Also, the hold down is stuck to the battery top so I will have to wrestle/pry it off, and needs a lot of cleaning too. Your description of how to lift the battery "out and in" rings true to how I had to do it before. This battery fits in real tight, and even the hold down is tight against the tank strap bracket. I recall trying to use one of those thin (anti corrosion) insulating blankets under the battery when I installed it but could not. I really had to wrestle the battery and hold down into place, so I expect another fight this time unless this battery is a little less tall - even a 1/16" or 3/32" would help a lot. Does that sound familiar?

Stu Fox

[Michael J.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

Michael;

I've gone as far as undoing the expansion tank and hose from the radiator, but I stopped to think about it a little longer. First, I have a 63 dated tank with the rolled in nipples (connections) which are even more fragile than the welded ones of later years. Also, there was a lot of hidden corrosion from the battery built up on the bottom of the tank and lower elbow which I believe will cause me to at least take the tank out to clean it up. Also, the hold down is stuck to the battery top so I will have to wrestle/pry it off, and needs a lot of cleaning too. Your description of how to lift the battery "out and in" rings true to how I had to do it before. This battery fits in real tight, and even the hold down is tight against the tank strap bracket. I recall trying to use one of those thin (anti corrosion) insulating blankets under the battery when I installed it but could not. I really had to wrestle the battery and hold down into place, so I expect another fight this time unless this battery is a little less tall - even a 1/16" or 3/32" would help a lot. Does that sound familiar?

Stu Fox

Sounds like the best option for you is to do as you planned all along, drain the radiator and unhook all the hoses so the expasion tank is all by it's lonesome so you can get 'er out and clean 'er up too. I have a NAPA Legend battery in mine (the proper repop size they said), and it left me very little room from the battery top to the base of the expansion tank.

As a strange coincidence, I have not started the '66 in a few weeks so I tried her this morning, the battery is dead (2 years old). I put her on recharge and yet after being fully recharged for a few hours and I tried to start it a little while ago and the battery was very weak, so I will be doing as you are soon. Does the Optima fit well? I don't want the NCRS approved restoration Delcos.

[Tom S.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

Stu
If you need help let me know I will come up. I need some C2 training as well. We will see you at the winter meet if not before.Tom

[Michael J.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

OK, I have finished the afternoon project of replacing the battery in my '66. Oh my aching back. I wish I cold get my hands on the engineer who designed that battery spot. I used the above referenced procedure, and it worked OK. I would suggest you get a pair of Mechanix gloves for it, and remember to duck tape off the battery posts so you avoid shorts while wrestling it out. I have a vintage air unit, thus a few more stiff hoses and vacuum controls to deal with in the battery cubby. I installed an Optima red top, it is about 1 1/2 inches shorter than the original equipment battery, thus more ease at wrestling it in and hooking the straps on the tank up. There is also more clearance between the battery and the bottom of the tank. I hope it lasts longer than the NAPA one I had, I don't want to do that job again real soon.

Good luck with yours Stuart, and definitely have your son wrestle it out for you! He probably has a stronger, younger back!

[Stuart F.]

Re: Batteries and Antifreeze

Michael;

I just got back in from some more garage work (I do that in conjunction with walking the dog). I was able to break loose the small hose from the tank to the "T" fitting in the heater hose line, and pulled the tank out with no apparent damage. Then, to get the battery holder out (are you taking notes) I used a large pry bar to tip the battery away from the tank strap bracket and remove the hold down. The hold down sits in there tight under the bracket otherwise. Tomorrow I'll start my cleaning of the area and the top of the old battery so it can be handled safely, then get my son to lift it out for me in accordance with the instruction you suggested. I also, as you suggested, used a bungy cord to hold the heater hoses in toward the engine and I believe it should be easy to manuver the battery out w/o too much interference. So, I only had to break one hose connection. I've got my baking soda ready to go as well as wire wheel and brushes to clean (save) the hold down and the tank. I hope it looks ok after de-corroding with the baking soda as I don't want to use any thing too abrasive on it. A dated 63 is not cheap.

I will have to go with the Delco Repro my son bought for now. He's a stickler for originality. I will measure the Optima tomorrow and let you know the size comparison to the Delco. It looks smaller. Also, you know, they make covers for them to make them look like originals, but got these gosh awful fake yellow caps on them all molded together with the black top.

Stu Fox